Russia UN ambassador Churkin reprimands Klimkin for insecurity of the air space of East Ukraine during UNSC speech

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There are two sides of each story. In the MH17 case Western media focuss on the who was responsible for the downing of MH17. Most people believe Russia was responsible by supplying a BUK TELAR and crew to the separatists. That is one side of the story.

The other side of the story is why MH17 was flying over a warzone. Why didn’t Ukraine close its airspace? Why was airspace closed up to FL320 and n0t completely? Why didn’t the Ukraine NOTAM mention the war activities like Russian NOTAMs did? Why was a mentioning of the Antonov 26 downing in the draft preliminary DSB report deleted in the final  version?

There are strong indications Ukraine knew there were one or multiple BUK’s in Eastern Ukraine at July 17. The US must have known as well of these movements.

The Russian ambassador to UN Vitaly Churkin who vetoed the MH17 tribunal at the July 29 United Nations Security Council meeting speeched about MH17. In the speech Churkin he addresses Pavlo Klimkin, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine . Churkin asks the question to Klimkin:

“Why were civil airplanes directed to the zone where military actions are conducted, to the zone where the Ukrainian forces fight war including the use of air force where military transport planes were flying? Why did you send civilian air planes to the war zone? ”

I have not read or seen any report of these statements in the Western media.

churkin-speech-unsc

Part of the speech can be seen here.

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154 Comments on Russia UN ambassador Churkin reprimands Klimkin for insecurity of the air space of East Ukraine during UNSC speech

  1. Admin:

    “Why didn’t the Ukraine NOTAM mention the war activities like Russian NOTAMs did?”

    Russia issued its NOTAM on July 16 after the downing of the SU-25M1 at 6500 m in the area of Saur-Mogila, stating it was due to firing from Ukraine in the direction of Russia. Every discussion I have read of this mentions artillery, as if Ukrainian or Rebel field artillery batteries were the threat to aviation, which is preposterous, as opposed to the threat being the firing of high altitude Surface to Air Missiles.

    It is interesting that Russia obviously did not believe that the AN-26 downing required a NOTAM, while one was issued after the SU-25M1 downing within hours. The Rebels in Lugansk claimed that the AN-26 was not at 6200 m and that it was downed with something like a Strela 10 or MANPADS. Ukraine claimed it was shot down from Russia by BUK or by a Russian plane. This later got conflated by the press to the rebels shooting it down with a BUK.

    The Ukrainian NOTAM coincides with the increase of their own BUK activity within the restricted area that Russia says they detected between July 14 and July 17.

    Also, the Russian and Ukrainian NOTAM’s had different scopes of particular applicability. In Ukraine’s:

    “A1493/14 NOTAMN
    “Q) UKDV/QARLC/IV/NBO/E/260/320/4820N03716E119”

    This means they were further restricting the Donbass airspace from FL 260 to FL 320 for 119 Nautical Miles from point 48.20N, 37.16E which is south of Krasnoarmieysk and also for no apparent reason as you note.

    Russia on the other hand has this scope:

    “V6158/14 NOTAMN
    “Q) URRV/QARLC/IV/NBO/E/000/530/4818N04008E088”

    Russia restricted flights up to FL 320, but the scope of warning about combat actions and military fire extended to FL 530 which would cover every known kind of civilian aircraft! The area covered is 88 nautical Miles from a point north of Svetlyy which includes the approaches to Rostov and all the primary area of Ukrainian deployment in Donbass as well as the rebel anti-air fire power. Russia was especially concerned with approach vectors to Rostov to/from Moscow and Dnipropetrovsk which would potentially pass near Suar Mogila at low altitude since Rostov was only 45 nautical miles away and banned all low level approaches and departures except by coming/going to the east-northeast over Konstantinovsk. And of course they mentioned firing of weaponry.

    “There are strong indications Ukraine knew there were one or multiple BUK’s in Eastern Ukraine at July 17.”

    Yes, besides the Rebels possibly having one or more and possibly having used one on July 16 to down the SU25-M1, Ukraine apparently deployed nearly two dozen into combat duty. A question I have asked before, does the BUK have a launch authorization key and was it issued to Ukrainian BUK’s in deployment?

    Another question I ask, is what kind of missile trail is this on this tweet which shows the shootdown of the Su-25M1?

    https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/489514171235459072

    This was from a video which YouTube unhelpfully deleted. The missile launch must have been impressive enough to nearby people that they heard something and came out and filmed it. Its hard to believe they would hear the launch of an air-to-air missile at high elevation.

    Then we need to ask, if the Rebels had a BUK, why would Ukraine not say something about it before July 17? Is it possible they were embarrassed because they knew it was one they had lost from their own military base, making them liable for its use?

    I would also ask, is the otherwise inexplicable airstrike on Snizhne at 6:30a on July 15 because Ukraine’s military thought they spotted a rebel BUK in Snizhne on July 15 and tried to eliminate it, but missed? Is this why neither side can give a reasonable explanation of what happened on the morning of July 15 (Russian provocation airstrike vs. random evil Ukrainian killing of peaceful civilians)? Neither side wants to admit that it was about a BUK?

    “Why were civil airplanes directed to the zone where military actions are conducted, to the zone where the Ukrainian forces fight war including the use of air force where military transport planes were flying?”

    This is of course a great question. Obviously rebels might mistake a plane from the west as a supply run of an IL-76. Ukraine might mistake a plane from the east that had a forced descent or an incorrect flight plan or comms problems as a Russian bombing mission or paratrooper deployment in an invasion. And someone might just make a mistake, as both Russia and Ukraine have done in the past.

    • Let me add, when Ukraine deployed its BUK’s and if it issued launch authorizations, then it should have closed its airspace at that point regardless of what the Rebels/Russia had or were doing or had done, simply because of the possibility of an accident like Siberian Air 1812.

      A risk assessment of the activity of deploying BUK’s with authority to launch under active civilian airways would have revealed a civilian aircraft shootdown as a likely unintended outcome in such a scenario.

    • Missile trail looks like radio-command guidance called line-of-sight guidance. One of possible user is SA-22 Pantsir.

  2. Andrew, you raise many points.
    Should international carriers refused to fly over Russia when they intentionally shot down KAL007 flying with all its lights on as it was tailed and the pilots from Russia saw passengers open and close window shades?
    A risk assessment should have been drawn at that point and you and I can both quibble about whether they should have or not because the question was did they shot down intentionally that flight and hid the BB for 8 years.
    The flights continued.
    There is enough evidence in my eyes that 1812 was shot down by an sub with missiles well outside the kill zone of either a S200 or 300 missile system.
    Most likely suspect in the Black Sea of the time, Russian, but whether or not a launch was noted by American satellites is still debated as to whether or not it was covered up for the basis of USA trying to do their best to prevent a new WW from starting.
    Russia has BUKs and other SAM missile systems deployed and testing all over Rostov, should those flights be closed?
    Even those from Sochi to Moscow because an accident MIGHT happen?

    Your assessment might miss a factor of reported 6500 could be while it was flying over a 3000 m mountain.
    A 3000m MANPADS kill is not out of the question.
    Both kills at that altitude could have been in the scenario I describe, but honestly I do believe the AN26 was an across the border kill by a Russian fighter.

    As far as your missile photo tweet, people would come out if they heard the sonic booms of fighter aircraft and see what was going on and with a dogfight or fighter attack, capture a missile flight.

    Knowing a BUK was in the area, you have to describe why you know that.
    And make your judgement from that.
    Was it a BUK with missiles, was it on a lowboy, was it in a field, was in a Russian base being repaired, did you have the launch key, was it because you deteched a radar being used, Was it a BUK without missiles, was it the radar of a similar device that mimics a BUK, was it some other identifying marker.
    Could you confirm an FULLY operational BUK with at least one missile owned by an enemy and did they show an intention to use it against all targets when it had builtin safeguards against the destruction of a civilian plane?

    To the admin, My guess, besides some of my conclusions above, would be to your question – “Why were civil airplanes directed to the zone where military actions are conducted, to the zone where the Ukrainian forces fight war including the use of air force where military transport planes were flying?” – because there was not enough evidence to completely close off airspace, and it was justifiable to let the plane owners and the pilots make the decision to fly 2 miles above the height of the lowest plane hit in Eastern Ukraine or make a request to completely avoid that area.

    And one final thing about 1812, those missiles were from a S200 and a S300 system, not the same as a BUK at all.
    I honestly believe Russia did not intentionally hit the plane in that case, but it is still up in the air.
    I think, my opinion, Russia launched a sub or destroyer missile intending to intercept the S200 missile and it missed when the S200 ran silent because it used up all its fuel and then it reacquired 1812.
    The distance limits of the S200 and the distance 1812 was shot at just do not add up.
    As far as a risk assessment goes, maybe no one should fly over Russia and all airspace should be closed there because they designed and build the LADA.

    Fare thee well

    • Boggled:

      KAL 007 was shot down because it was over closed airspace with secretive military installations twice (Kamchatka and Sakhalin). At the time, the Soviet Union did not permit overflights except of planes routed to its airports. The Soviets seemed to think it was possibly a civilian aircraft being used for aerial spying purposes I think. Kind of like loading the Lusitania with munitions. I wouldn’t put it past my government to pull such a stunt, as it is not as if the US respected Russian airspace restrictions (see the U2 shootdown and the SR-71 program).

      I don’t have any comment about S-200 conspiracies. Didn’t Ukraine accept responsibility? Didn’t the US say immediately the Ukrainian missile shot the plane down? Didn’t Russian doubt the US at first?

      Russia has BUK’s and S-300’s based near Rostov, but they would not normally be on active combat duty with launch authorization. I believe it has a test firing range for BUK’s just east of Volgograd. That would be of greater concern, but I assume flights are routed around the relatively limited area it would cover, as Americans route fligths around the missile firing ranges in southern Arizona and the California high desert. So the same risk is not present and an accident like that has never happened, unlike shootdowns in warzones or during live fire tests.

      “not enough evidence”

      If a BUK was captured/stolen from the 156th Regiment in Donetsk or Lugansk, you would think Ukraine would know. I think if the conclusion of this investigation comes to that they will look really stupid.’

      If a BUK was brought across the border, I suppose this might be harder to hide, but still, with all the dash cam videos, traffic camera videos, still pictures, and informant sightings of heavy weaponry movements, you would think Ukraine would be aware. They seem to have had spies near Svijerny who knew what was coming across the border from Donetsk Russia.

    • Just to address one point: please show me the 3’000 m high mountains in the Donbass. I previously thought the highest mountain in the Ukraine was Mount Hoverla, about 1’000 km away in the Carpathians, and only 2061 m in elevation:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoverla

      More probalbly the claimed 6’500 m altitude is complete bs, like most statements from Kiev nowadays.

      • Ok Thomas, you can think that, I was trying to explain that the airplane uses two different elevations for measurements, altitude above sea level and altitude above the ground it passes over.

        The SA18 and SA24 both forms of MANPADS has a kill range of about 6km or 6000m.
        The height of Donets Ridge varies but many regions are above 1000m.
        Yes you right about the Western Ridges being the highest.
        I believe Saur Mogylia height is in the 930 m range and that is one reason it was fought over so hard.
        So if a plane was flying at altitude 6500m, but was only 5500 m above ground it would be in the kill range of those missile types.
        Then there are other newer specific missiles that might be able to loaded into that launcher with a longer kill range, I am not sure of the current highest SAM handheld missiles range is.
        And who knows if inside Donetsk the other vehicles that launch SAM’s may have been used, various forms have been photographed and have a limited ceiling of short range SAM missile complexes.
        Some have 5 KM range, some 6, some 7.
        Regardless at 6500 meters above sea level a plane is in range of MANPADS in Eastern Ukraine.

        Fare thee well

        • And I might also add since Russia controls much of that 400km border, with only 2 OSCE crews watching to small section of it, the possibility exists for them to shoot from Western Russian hills as well which could be higher.
          These are just suggestions because I have not geolocated every of the 25 or so planes and helicopters shot down and compared them to topographical maps.
          And compared them to MANPADs versus short range SAM vehicles with that range versus Russia firing across the border with its MiG29 at elevation.

          And if you label Kyiv as a BSer, then I want to remind you of the little green men in Crimea and vova’s last election results.

          Fare thee well

  3. Admin, one other point I would raise about the differences in NOTAM’s would be Russia is trying to hid both their involvement in the war, and the facts of across the border firings which would be an Act of War if there was proof provided by their own NOTAM.
    Maybe the reason Russia raised limits was to protect its own civilian pilots flying INTO the Eastern Ukraine area on their way to Crimea etc. while those others pilots disregarded or would not receive it until they contacted Rostov ATC.
    So Russian planes would receive it because they flew into Ukraine and received the notice there first, Russia did not want their own IL shot down.
    I am not a pilot so it is not an expert opinion, but it is a logical guess.
    Maybe you can correct me on procedure, but as MH17 was being shot down, the pilots might of only then received the NOTAM?
    Or do the get it before they get off the ground back in the Netherlands?
    I mean no one was unaware that Eastern Ukraine was a conflict zone I think.
    Just no where the airline’s were notified that all flight needed to be rerouted due to completely avoid the area or it was under their own discretion.
    If Russians advised they closed the altitude and region, it would not get passed onto pilots in the Netherlands before they took off did it? Or to the airliners.
    The region they are flying over takes top priority in situation awareness.
    But if it was a Moscow based flight Russian NOTAM’s would have priority going into Ukraine.
    For example, Hamas could want to stop all Israeli flights by making NOTAM’s that restrict flight levels and regions if they had just as much priority as the Israeli NOTAM’s did.
    Like I said I am not a pilot of any fashion, commercial, recreational, or military, these are a lot of guesses I am walking through and trying to figure it out.
    Many of these are guesses and attempts to sound out the answers in a complex situation.

    Fare thee well

    • Boggled:

      Had the airspace entering Rostov been closed to unlimited or even FL 530, flight plans with routes below that level would have been rejected.

      • Exactly, Russia controls its airspace at the border into its territory.
        Planes must conform to that PART of the NOTAM when they enter that airspace.
        When their planes fly IN other nations, they are giving recommendations for flights that originate in Russia and follow those corridors.
        So a NOTAM has two aspects to it for pilots, one for entering Russia and one for pilots leaving Russia along questionable border regions because there are conflicts on Russian borders that Russian ATC must deal with and advise pilots on their routes, with special preference or advice given to pilots leaving Russian airspace.

        Fare thee well

  4. And if I am not wrong, all the waypoints listed in the Russian NOTAM are inside of Russia proper.

    Fare thee well

  5. And Andrew, if I am not wrong, the video that photo is taken from or one taking from a similar location but a different camera is here.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWDGIRqmKsg

    Fare thee well

  6. Admin, you posted the FAA NOTAM for the Russian one.
    A little more detailed then the transcript I found which is
    V6158/14 NOTAMN
    Q) URRV/QARLC/IV/NBO/E/000/530/4818N04023E095
    A) URRV B) 1407170000 C) 1408312359 EST
    E) DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE
    STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FIRING
    FROM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN
    FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY,
    ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:
    A100 MIMRA – ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND) ,
    B145 KANON – ASMIL,
    G247 MIMRA – BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
    A87 TAMAK – SARNA,
    A102 PENEG – NALEM,
    A225 GUKOL – ODETA,
    A712 TAMAK – SAMBEK NDB (SB),
    B493 FASAD – ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
    B947 TAMAK – ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
    G118 LATRI – BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
    G534 MIMRA – TOROS,
    G904 FASAD – SUTAG,
    R114 BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA)-NALEM.
    SFC – FL320.

    Found here –
    http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6129612/

    post by baw217

    Fare thee well

    • Boggled:

      That is only half the Russian NOTAM. Here is the rest.

      DEP FM/ARR TO ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD TO/FM MOSCOW FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG ATS RTE G128 KONSTANTINOVSK NDB (KA) – MOROZOVSK VOR/DME (MOR) AND R11 MOROZOVSK VOR/DME (MOR) – BUTRI ON ASSIGNED FL.
      DEP FM ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD TO DNEPROPETROVSK FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG ATS RTE A102 KONSTANTINOVSK NDB (KA) – NALEM ON FL340 AND ABOVE.
      ARR TO ROSTOV-NA-DONU AD FM DNEPROPETROVSK FIR CARRIED OUT ALONG ATS RTE A712 TAMAK – SAMBEK NDB (SB) THEN DCT KONSTANTINOVSK NDB (KA) ON FL330 AND ABOVE.
      SFC – FL530, 17 JUL 00:00 2014 UNTIL 31 AUG 23:59 2014 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 16 JUL 17:08 2014

  7. Another interesting post on July 17th 2014 there,
    ‘The plane turned exactly 17 today.

    First flight was July 17, 1997. Crashed July 17, 2014 operating MH flight…17.’

    • bogged,
      I have to admit, these numbers have been sending up the hairs on my back for more than a year now.
      I seriously hope they turn out to be a coincidence…

  8. Toni Wunderer // August 4, 2015 at 6:16 pm // Reply

    Always interesting to watch again which plane companies seemed not to be frightened at all of flying in that region after MH17. So much about Russia’s stupid excuses!

    https://apps.correctiv.org/mh17/?paused#embed

    It is their war. They have attacked Ukraine and that’s how all the mess started. Later, in a war shit happens. Sad but normal! Of course it is good to keep a record of who did what, but MH17 in the end is a consequence of Russia’s war. And most probably they also shot it down or their dumbass-rebels did it.

    • Toni:

      “They have attacked Ukraine and that’s how all the mess started.”

      I forget how this happened. Can you remind me? Was it when Russia organized protestors to the Maidan and overthrew the government because it was too hard to wait one more year for elections? Or was it when Russia was caught on a phone tap naming the new Ukrainian government before Yanukovich fell? Well, maybe it was when Russia seized Interior Ministry armories in western Ukraine and brought field artillery into the streets? Possibly it was when Russia hired Right Sector rent-a-mobs across Ukraine to beat people with incorrect views? Maybe it was when Russia sent the 25th Airborne against elderly civilians in Kramatorsk? Possibly it was when Russia burned civilians alive in Odessa and shot civilians in the street in Mariupol? Or perhaps it was when Russia’s governor in Kherson gave a speech praising Adolf Hitler as the liberator of Ukraine? Its so confusing. Maybe its when Russia started shelling Slavyansk from Mount Karachun, deviously pretending to be members of the noble Ukrainian military while killing civilians? Maybe you can let us know which if these provocations was the first attack by Russia that started it all.

      • That is called a Gish Gallop.

        And in your case, a Gish Gallop of the worst kind : One that brings up a large number of biased (and spun) arguments, neither of which (even if sustained) gives Russia the right to annex property or intervene militarily or otherwise in a neighboring sovereign nation.

        • Rob:

          Biased and spun?

          So what are you saying? None of the above happened, or that the events and victims just don’t count and no one should take notice of them, so it is not a cause of the mess?

          I’m confused. Perhaps there is a special quality to a certain military organization headquartered in Brussels that gives it a right of intervention/”Right to Protect” in say, Krajina, Bosnia and Kosovo when things aren’t going quite right according to civilized norms, but this right is very unique and doesn’t extend to anyone else on the planet?

          You trust the people who 460 days on cannot find one person to indict for mass murder in Odessa to solve the MH17 disaster even though they should be treated as one of the suspects?

      • I could just as easily say Maidan was the result of a Mordor led corrupt puppet government that got caught stealing.
        And where is that corrupt leader hiding?
        A nice little 50 million dollar dacha outside of Moscow.
        Many stories of yanukothief’s corruption led to his and others downfall and demand for change.
        They do not give Russia or any other nation the right to come into UA and annex territory with referendums held in force by automatic weapons.
        There is a BIG difference between USA orchestrated and USA supported.
        Little evidence of orchestrated, much of USA supported.
        USA support was at a minimum and you know it.
        In March I believe it was in 2014 that BHO gave a speech in Poland.
        It really is a good speech, I recommend listening to it, with one fault I find in it.
        Do you know what his support was announced at that time??
        5 million USD.
        5 MILLION, that is it. BIG USA support there.
        yanukothief would not get off his solid gold toilet seat if he could not embezzle on that day.

        Fare thee well

        • Boggled:

          “Many stories of yanukothief’s corruption led to his and others downfall and demand for change.”

          I thought that Maidan was about not signing the association agreement? Now we are saying its about corruption?

          And if a politician is corrupt, the constitutional order of a democratic state like Ukraine was provides normal mechanisms to handle this, most especially in the case of a failure to prosecute or impeach, to simply elect new leaders at the next election.

          In the US, we have plenty of times dealing with a corrupt politician. If his own party is in charge and will not prosecute, we wait until the next election and change parties in power. We don’t riot and take up arms because someone stole money. The tax collector in my town stole $1 million. He got away with it for a while, but now he is in jail. We didn’t overthrow our local government to do that.

          “There is a BIG difference between USA orchestrated and USA supported. Little evidence of orchestrated, much of USA supported.”

          Really? Maidan and its outcome was predicted the day before it began by Member of the Verkhovna Rada Oleg Tsarev, including mass civil unrest, overthrow of the state order, and civil war, all being prepared by the US Embassy. Did he just get lucky and hit the trifecta in his predictions?

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gbVOr6n8Ww

          To get back on topic, again, these are the new authorities being entrusted with (1) not being involved in MH17 in any way, and (2) solving the MH17 whodunnit with the Netherlands. But they weren’t competent enough to close their own airspace with their planes being blown out of the sky and they themselves firing missiles from the air in combat, and they are not competent enough to find any suspects in three of the worst instances of wanton mass murder in Europe in decades, including the massacre of 100 of the new government’s own supporters on the Maidan (its a mere 540 days and counting with no suspects for the sniper attacks).

          And you sit here and say I am trolling as you support their undertaking, which is really a vast mess?

          So we are supposed to believe that within 2 hours of MH17 crashing in Hrabove the SBU already knew exactly who fired what weapon and where to bring down MH17, they had tapes of the suspects on the phone and pictures of them with the weapon, and within 12 hours they had an agent in place to film the weapon being moved in Lugansk? But they didn’t know enough to close the airspace that day? And in 540 days they can’t figure out who the Maidan Snipers were, and in 470 days they can’t find who the Odessa murderers were, all of which took place on near live video in front of a candid world? But they figured out MH17 within half a day?

          Really?

          Really???

          • Andrew, each had their own reasons.
            Yats did organize on the basis of yanukothief making moves to accept a Kremlin bailout that he could continue to embezzle from which would have cost Ukrainians untold billions.

            yanukothief adjusted laws for himself to stay in power and have control that was almost unstoppable.
            And continue to embezzle.

            The rally call was for a demonstration of many to let yanukothief know a large group of people are proEurope and were tired of Moscow, they have seen it all before and it was time for a change.

            You video does not even deserve to be commented on.
            And yes, I have seen it.

            ** As to the MH17 and decision to close airspace, I would ask the admin to release my comment with links in the spam filter. **

            Making an arrest and making a case and presenting in court are two different things Andrew as you well know.
            They showed they had evidence about MH17 and have been having a hard time getting Europe and America to even notice that Russian troops invaded Crimea and occupied it against international laws and treaties that Russia signed on to.
            They could have held onto it as would happen in most normal ‘Western’ countries.
            Because they are fledgling they had to release items into the international community.

            As to Odessa and the Berkut Snipers, they know exactly what happened and are making the cases for the killers to be brought to justice.
            They also are documenting cases for war crimes, getting rid of corruption, making decisions about their future, fighting corruption in the justice system, replacing and retraining a police force, getting tons of rusted military equipment back in shape, kicking out GRU agents in Ukraine’s military, keeping the country from going bankrupt, encouraging new business, DID I MENTION FIGHTING A WAR WITH A LARGER NEIGHBOR TO THE EAST?, squashing money laundering, cutting off smuggling routes, making sure people have enough food, documenting evidence of MH17, keeping an eye on the new flow of troops and Russian military equipment, setting up prosecution cases for previous Party of Regions corrupt members, deciding about LGBT rights, taking away Presidential powers yanukothief granted himself, creating a balance that will hopefully prevent a future President or other branch from being allowed to screw up that bad, DID I MENTION THEY ARE FIGHTING A WAR AGAINST A NUCLEAR POWER WITH A LARGER MILITARY BY TENFOLD AND THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY NUKES THEMSELVES?, maintaining their humanitarian missions they are part of in Africa and other locations, getting back Moscow hostages that they took from Ukraine and are putting on circus trials in Moscow, keeping an eye of fissile material at their power plants, maintaining electricity and gas and coal and water going for residents of Ukraine, fighting for Crimean Tatar rights, setting up a 4g service in Ukraine, keeping militias from getting to big for their britches, documenting torture executions and kidnapping in a region they do not have control over, getting humanitarian aid together and keeping it flowing to both Crimea and Donbas, oh did I mention they are fighting a war with someone they called brothers?

            They know damn well who the snipers are and the fact they are being sheltered in Russia and Crimea.
            They know damn well who the perps are in Odessa, some in Crimea, some in Russia, some in Transdniestra.
            They know Russia is not going to extradite them until they have a relationship with Russia that is not based on war.
            Until then, there is no real reason to try these people in absentia.
            Until they can know for a fact some corrupt judge would learned justice the Russian World way of here a bribe there a bribe everywhere a bribe bribe, there is not a whole lot of reasons to try certain people who they want as high profile cases and see that justice is done, but the perp gets a fair trial.

            Yeah, really, there are parts of Ukraine’s leadership that are working well and parts that are not.

            They know, it is a shame you don’t when the facts are sitting right on the end of your nose and within short reach of your fingertips on a keyboard.

            Fare thee well

      • Toni Wunderer // August 5, 2015 at 12:16 pm // Reply

        @Andrew,

        that is the typical RT truth bullshit-bingo with paid uprisings by the west, shootings by probably someone in the west and so on. I have no nerve to discuss this nonsense anymore with you anti-west ***
        You’re blind on one eye but eat every shit that Russia serves you on a plate with a green RT logo on top of it. Good appetite! 🙂

        PS: You won’t convince anyone of your Putin world where going with weapons into another country is just fair because America also has no white west. That’s a logic for (and no I’m not going to be polite) idiots!

        A few billion $ credits by Russia just some weeks to Janukowytsch from Putin…Andrew doesn’t care, but yes he heard the RT story of Newland on a taped phone and this is the eternal proof…for lets call them lightminded, emotional, anti-western useful fools for the Kremlin 🙂

        Wake up! Everyone in this world has interests, there is no poor David and only bad Goliaths. There are big Goliaths, there are nearly as big Goliaths and David also has no white west.

    • Back on topic, the Correct!v animation that Toni provided presents clear evidence of the hypocrisy from Churkin’s allegations against Ukraine.

      After all, that AN26 on July 14 was shot down right under a major Russian commercial flight corridor.
      So if ANY country would have stopped flying over Eastern Ukraine out of “security” concerns, it should have been Russia.

      Unless of course that AN26 on July 14 was shot down by Russian Military, in which case Russia had nothing to worry about, because the Russian Military knows EXACTLY what they are doing and knew EXACTLY what they were shooting at.

      Even better, this Correct!V animation from July 24 shows that Russian airlines continued to fly over the area even after Ukraine had closed its airspace over the East entirely :
      https://apps.correctiv.org/mh17/?date=2014-07-24

      If Russia’s debunked conspiracy theories (that Ukraine did it) would have had any merit to begin with, then why, from all airlines, the Russians are the ONLY ones still flying over Eastern Ukraine on July 24 ?
      Even defying Ukraine’s NOTAM ?

      That makes no sense at all unless Russia knows EXACTLY what it’s military was shooting at on the 17th of July.

      • Rob:

        “Russian airlines continued to fly over the area”

        Do you have pictures of these civilian overflights or ATC radar tapes? Or is this interpolated computer generated data drawing a stringline from origin to destination? Can you find a single image showing a typical contrail high up in the sky post July 17 in eastern Ukraine?

        “Unless of course that AN26 on July 14 was shot down by Russian Military”

        Why don’t you want to give the rebel Militia credit for doing it? Its not good enough for them to claim responsibility?

        “why Russian airliners continue to fly over Eastern Ukraine after the July 14 downing of a Ukrainian AN26 underneath a major Russian civilian flight corridor”

        Perhaps the Russians, thanks to their military radar, knew exactly what height the AN-26 was flying at, and that it wasn’t 6500 m? The militia said they shot it down, and that it was not that high.

        • Toni Wunderer // August 5, 2015 at 12:18 pm // Reply

          The map tells you from where the data is taken! Come on troll somewhere else Mr. Information-Bias!

          Bye!!!!

          • Toni:

            I know it is from FlightRadar24. They are the same people who said their data said MH17 flew over Snizhne before making a 180 degree turn and crashing (last data point is 48.0403, 38.7728). They have little credibility in my eyes for fine detail once they insisted on such a preposterous occurrence.

            https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/489806795725348864

            Paulik ‏@onemorepash 22 Jul 2014
            @flightradar24 Guys, could you approve/disprove that the last point (13:21:28) is actually based on received data and not on extrapolation?

            Flightradar24 ‏@flightradar24 22 Jul 2014
            Flightradar24 retweeted Flightradar24
            @onemorepash We can confirm that data in this tweet is 100% correct and real data

            Ukraine@war ‏@DajeyPetros 23 Jul 2014
            @flightradar24 Then how is it possible that the latest position is further then the crash site? @onemorepash pic.twitter.com/rTuf3s0NJ9

            Andy ‘Nobby’ Clark ‏@nobby_uk 17 Jul 2014
            @flightradar24 How come these figures don’t match the #KLM4103 figures?
            pic.twitter.com/DMywoQI22Q

            Alex Pchelyakov ‏@RUPch Sep 9
            @flightradar24 Can you explain why the last point (48.0403 38.7728) is not captured by FDR as per preliminary report by Dutch Safety Board?

          • Toni Wunderer // August 5, 2015 at 4:39 pm //

            @Andrew: Oh… some very very detailed little deviations and you consider a whole map with flightroutes untrustable. You are ridiculous! If you know how fr24 works, then yes, it might be that they don’t get every signal. I have even seen this live following flights. Suddenly data gaps, etc. They use open data! But as I said. For you and your information bias everything is untrutable but a pile of shit with a RT logo sticking on its top and you go crazy! Good appetite with it in your little kosmos! Rott in your conspiracy hell with all the other idiots! Bye!!!

          • Andrew, your concern about the flightradar24 data from MH17 appears to hang on to only the last two pings, which appear to originate from a single receiver (station 5913). 5913 is especially suspect since it transmits MH17’s altitude as 33,000 ft for more than a minute and a half AFTER the Dutch Safety Board’s final FDR point.

            Could it be that 5913 is a “fake” station ? One that transmitted extrapolated data ?

          • Rob:

            I don’t have any idea about why the last two stations might be pinging after the failure of the FDR. I would think that is something FR24 should or would want to explain, but they don’t.

        • Andrew said :

          “Why don’t you want to give the rebel Militia credit for doing it? Its not good enough for them to claim responsibility?”

          If the “rebel Militia” as you call them downed that AN26 on the 14th, along the Russian border and smack underneath a major Russian civilian aviation corridor, the the Russian airliners should have been IMMEDIATELY closed their airspace along the border, especially since these “rebels” were stating they used a BUK system to do so.

          Russia did not do that after the July 14 incident, which means that either they knew the “rebels” were lying about having a BUK system, or they assumed that the “rebels” knew what they were shooting at.

          • Neither one of these two options should be comforting for Russian airliners.
            So since Russian airliners continued to fly after the 14th, the “rebels” did not shoot down that AN26.

          • Antidyatel // August 7, 2015 at 9:02 am //

            Ok. Here is the one where for people like you the information is more extended and they directly mention MANPAD http://m.ria.ru/world/20140714/1015921845.html

          • From your reference :

            “”Yes, we confirm that the two aircraft were shot down and captured by a few people. I have been told about the two prisoners,” – he told RIA Novosti defense minister Igor LC Carpenter. According to him, the aircraft were shot down by MANPADS from the territory of the LC.”

            and

            “… Another plane was shot down near Lisichansk Luhansk region.”

            But that is not correct. There were NO “two aircraft” shot down on July 14.
            There was only ONE aircraft shot down.
            No plane was ever shot down near Lisichansk.

            So how much can we trust this guy “defense minister Igor LC Carpenter” if he tells a lie even in the first sentence he make publicly ?

            Not to mention that this guy (Carpenter) blatantly contradicts the statement made by the very same “militia” he pretends to represent, stating

            “Today the militia to destroy the aircraft AN-26 opponent at an altitude of more than 6 thousand. Meters was used SAM” 9K37M1 “(better known as” Buck “).”
            http://www.vz.ru/news/2014/7/14/695525.html

        • Andrew said “Perhaps the Russians, thanks to their military radar, knew exactly what height the AN-26 was flying at, and that it wasn’t 6500 m? The militia said they shot it down, and that it was not that high.”

          http://www.vz.ru/news/2014/7/14/695525.html

          “”Today the militia to destroy the aircraft AN-26 opponent at an altitude of more than 6 thousand. Meters was used SAM” 9K37M1 “(better known as” Buck “).”

          Seems to suggest that YES, that AN26 was that high, and YES, the “militia” claims to have used a BUK to down it.

          • Antidyatel // August 6, 2015 at 8:38 am //

            Vzglyad was pointed that they should check their sources of information, which appeared to be some unknown experts thalinking that it was Buk and thatched altitude was such. Both rebels and Russian military denied that report on the same day. So you missed here

          • Where is your reference that “Both rebels and Russian military denied that report on the same day.” ?

          • Antidyatel // August 6, 2015 at 10:48 am //

            Here is the reference for rebels side
            http://www.interfax.ru/world/385677
            The Russian military was too tired of stupid accusations of Ukrs at that moment. But they dismissed a similar accusation two days later. And just to point you Ukrs admitting that they flies Su-25 on july16. So no need to argue in another thread that they didn’t
            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28345039

          • In your reference the LPR “militia” neither deny that that AN26 was flying above 6000 meters, nor that a BUK system was used to down it.

            They just mention that it was not a Carapace (Pantsir) system.

            Which puts credibility to their earlier claim that a BUK 9K37M1 system was used to take down that AN26 on July 14.

          • Antidyatel said “The Russian military was too tired of stupid accusations of Ukrs at that moment. But they dismissed a similar accusation two days later.”

            Any reference for that statement ?

          • Antidyatel // August 7, 2015 at 9:04 am //

            Rob. Please see the BBC link earlier regarding Russian military response two days later about similar accusation from Ukrs. Also be kind to comment on admission of Ukrs that their planes were flying on 16th July 2014

          • admin said “In this post I documented some time ago Ukraine air force was active at July 16″

            and Antidyatel said ” And just to point you Ukrs admitting that they flies Su-25 on july16. So no need to argue in another thread that they didn’t”

            But, guys, I never said that the Ukrainian military was not active on July 16.
            I simply did not.

            So I’m not sure what you want me to “argue” about here.

          • Antidyatel said “Please see the BBC link earlier regarding Russian military response two days later about similar accusation from Ukr”

            Not sure what you want to prove here.
            The Russian Defense ministry neither denied that this AN26 was flying at high altitude, nor did they deny that the plane was downed by a BUK system.

            That BBC article just states that the Russia’s defense ministry called the accusation (that the Russian Military downed that AN26) “absurd”. That’s it. By now we are used to that Russian denial of involvement in Eastern Ukraine. Nothing new.

            So now we have the rebels claiming that AN26 on July 14 was downed at high altitude and by a BUK system, and the Ukrainians claim that that AN26 was downed from high altitude, and the Russians deny being involved (as usual).

            The international community was even alerted (by the Ukrainians) that this AN26 was downed from high altitude, and that this meant that Russia’s military was directly involved in the conflict, and possibly downed by a SAM from Russian territory.

            I understand that this alert from the Ukrainians created quite a controversy in Western media, specifically alleging that the Dutch, or Malaysian Airlines, or Ukraine could have known that the sky over Ukraine was not safe.

            While in FACT the problem that the Ukrainians reported was that Russia was shooting at Ukrainian targets from across the border.

            Big difference.

        • Andrew said “Do you have pictures of these civilian overflights or ATC radar tapes? Or is this interpolated computer generated data drawing a stringline from origin to destination?”

          These Fightradar24 tracks are certainly NOT “interpolated computer generated data drawing a stringline from origin to destination”.

          For example, many of these flights over the conflict area in Eastern Ukraine, both before and after July 17, are between Simferopol and Moskow, where a stringline drawing would put their tracks much further west over Ukraine than what the Correct!v / flightradar24 data suggests.

          Flightradar24 data originates from many thousands of private receiver stations, many of which located in the west of Russia and the east of Ukraine, so there is little doubt that the flightradar24 images from July 17 and July 24 alike are legitimate.

  9. Crimeans themselves say that they prefer Russia.
    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-02-06/one-year-later-crimeans-prefer-russia
    “Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea’s inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it.”

    • If you live in Crimea, and somebody calls you up asking if you support that you are now part of Russia, what would you answer ?

    • “What I saw was a democratic choice, I didn’t see any problems,” said Aymeric Chauprade, an adviser for French National Front leader Marine le Pen.

    • Moscow sent an invitation to parties of the European far right, and found politicians willing to serve as “observers.” Enrique Ravello has belonged to the neo-Nazi CEDADE and now belongs to the extreme-right Plataforma per Catalunya. Luc Michel used to belong to the neo-Nazi Fédération d’action nationaliste et européenne and now supports a blend of fascism and Bolshevism that is also popular among Russia’s Eurasianists. Béla Kovács is a member of the Hungarian extreme-right party Jobbik and the treasurer of the Alliance of European National Movements.

    • Of course, your “Crimeans themselves say that they prefer Russia” argument is almost the definition of a “red herring” in the context of this thread about Churkin’s hypocritical allegations against Ukraine.

      One may one ask why Russian airliners continue to fly over Eastern Ukraine after the July 14 downing of a Ukrainian AN26 underneath a major Russian civilian flight corridor along the border, and certainly after the downing of MH17.

  10. Rob , it’s just to show that Crimeans did not want to live under the junta that America set up in Kiev. Not everyone wants the USA meddling in their affairs.

    • Specifically those of the Moscow mafia who want to continue their money laundering, drug smuggling, blackmail, extortion, embezzlement schemes would e examples of people who are willing at gunpoint to take over the Crimean Parliament, replace its leader, force a referendum vote in just three weeks, take over Ukrainian military bases, have the vote at gunpoint with many ballot boxes of prevoted results being intercepted, people observed voting four and five times, and Kremlin announced results observed by some of the larger European Kremlin aligned fascist political groups that were Kremlin only approved as observers.
      Yeah, that is democracy in action.

      Fare thee well

    • Eric, you are way off topic, and, as I showed, your suggestion that a phone interview represents the opinion of the people living in Crimea is questionable at best.

    • Eric, I guess you missed Strelkov’s interview where he admits no one wanted them Separatists militias or violence in Crimea, there was no ethnic Russian persecution, and there were no Bandera or Pravy Sektor to worry about there.
      But he took it over anyways because that is what his boss wanted.

      Fare thee well

  11. Please keep this thread on topic otherwise I will close comments.

    • Admin, I have a comment below waiting on moderation.
      Possibly because of having links, possibly because its relevance to this issue.
      Possibly you have not seen it stuck there yet, I am just letting I still see it when I enter this page.

      Fare thee well

  12. admin, my response to Churkin if I was knowledgeable and had time to think of an answer is why did it take Russia two days to announce closing of flights and airspace over Syria AFTER a Russian plane was shot at?
    A conflict zone well known to have SAM and MANPAD and aircraft with missiles.
    http://www.rt.com/news/rockets-russian-plane-syria-575/

    Why were they still flying, what is it in 2013? 2 years after the beginning of the conflict??
    2 YEARS AFTER the beginning of the conflict.

    Yes, some Russian airliners made the decision themselves to avoid the area in 2012 a year after the start of the conflict, but why did the Russian government not forbid it until 2 days after a Russian charter plane was shot at with 2 land launched missiles?

    Why has Syria not forbid it and closed their airspace? There are still planes today flying in and out of their international airport.
    Those would have been my replies if I was knowledgeable and or had time and the internet.
    A site of current flight departures and destinations can be found for Damascus at –

    http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightStatus/flightStatusByAirport.do?airportCode=DAM&airportQueryType=0

  13. The Russian NOTAM from July 16 is interesting. Here it is again :

    URRV V6158/14 17JUL0000-31AUG2359 EST DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FRNG FM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY, ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:

    Couple of notes on this :

    1) “AND THE FACTS OF FRNG FM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION”
    This is the truth turned upside-down.
    There is ample evidence, including multiple videos, that Russia was firing GRAD missile across the border INTO Ukraine on July 16. One analysis here :
    http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/07/russian-grad-firing-from-russian-soil.html

    2) There were no COMBAT OPERATIONS by the Ukrainian army prior to July 17 that affected any airspace above the already established restrictions over Eastern Ukraine.
    The ONLY COMBAT OPERATIONS that this Russian NOTAM may refer to might be the actions of the RUSSIAN army and air force in their actions of downing a Ukrainian AN26 of July 14 along the Russian border, bombing Snizhne on July 15, and downing a Ukrainian SU25 on July 16.
    And… The anticipation of some COMBAT operations on July 17 itself using the now infamous BUK system from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk which downed MH17 on the 17th.

    • Date of the Russian NOTAM : CREATED: 16 JUL 17:08 2014.

      That would be 20:08 Ukraine time, or, in other words, just a few hours before Russia would move it’s BUK 3×2 into Ukraine at the border town of Sjeverne, according to the JIT…..

    • Rob, that NOTAM would suggest that they were preparing for it.
      It really is strange for me to see the part about firing from UA towards the RF border.
      By that time I thought RF and the terrorists had destroyed all border checkpoints and most of the firing was toward Ukrainian military forces.
      A farce on so many levels of the RF government bodies is amazing.

      Fare thee well

      • Boggled:

        “Rob, that NOTAM would suggest that they were preparing for it.”

        The NOTAM was a reaction to the downing of the SU25M1 at Saur Mogila on July 16. The Ukrainian plane was stated by the Militia and Russian law enforcement in Rostov to have violated Russian air space during its bombing run of the Militia artillery positions on and around Saur Mogila and was shot down by a SAM necessarily fired by the Militia in the direction of Russia.

        “It really is strange for me to see the part about firing from UA towards the RF border. By that time I thought RF and the terrorists had destroyed all border checkpoints and most of the firing was toward Ukrainian military forces.”

        The NOTAM is not talking about artillery fire. That is simply preposterous. Artillery is not fired 10 km into the air. It is talking about the firing of surface to air missiles from the interior of Ukraine towards the Russian border where Ukrainian military aviation was flying.

        The primary purpose of the NOTAM was to direct the approach and departure of all incoming and outgoing flights from Rostov airport far away from the border to the northeast. The secondary purpose was the general protection of aviation transiting the border.

        However, to your general point, the hosts of the Ukrainian Army were congregated all along the border due to their border offensive misadventure and were subjected to intense artillery bombardment directed from the interior held by the Militia towards the Russian border.

        • Andrew said (about the July 16 downing of a Ukrainian SU25) :

          “The Ukrainian plane was stated by the Militia and Russian law enforcement in Rostov to have violated Russian air space”

          Full stop right there.
          Where is your evidence that :
          1) a Ukrainian plane on the 16th violated Russian airspace, and
          2) the the Militia and Russian law enforcement (for as far as these differ) made a statement to that effect.

          And in the same sentence :
          “..and was shot down by a SAM necessarily fired by the Militia in the direction of Russia.”

          Where is your evidence that that Ukrainian SU25 was
          1) downed by a SAM,
          2) fired by the Militia, and
          3) in the direction of Russia.

          Seriously, Andrew, where do you get this stuff from ?
          If you deny reality and make up alternate realities on the fly, as you seem to do in your posts, make it at least more plausible…

          • Rob:

            http://lifenews.ru/news/136731
            (autotranslate)
            22:40 on July 16, 2014

            The militia shot down a Ukrainian plane at the border with Russia

            Before that, the pilot crossed the air border of our country.

            The Ukrainian air force aircraft entered Russian airspace, I made a turn and began to leave towards Ukraine, but was shot down by militias at the height of six thousand meters, told LifeNews source in law enforcement bodies of the Rostov region. The incident occurred at about 19:00 on July 16.
            Fighter was seen in Russia. The plane could be seen even from Kuybyshevo, – said the source. – He did a u-turn and headed in the direction of Ukraine, however, the militia managed to shoot it down.

            According to preliminary data, the aircraft pilot managed to eject. Downed the plane crashed on the territory of Ukraine.

            ——————–

            Is that clear enough? The Militia shot down the plane at 6000 m with an SAM and it was hit as it was turning to leave Russian airspace. Whether you want to accept the report is true is your own choice, but that was the claim on the evening of July 16.

        • Andrew, did you see anything in my statement that you quoted that said anything about artillery fire? Or the NOTAM?
          I suggest you read it again, because I do not see it.
          You having dreams of flying pink elephants again?

          Fare thee well
          Fare thee well

    • Rob:

      “There is ample evidence, including multiple videos, that Russia was firing GRAD missile across the border INTO Ukraine on July 16.”

      YAWN … and … so … what? Ukraine’s military had been firing artillery into Russia for weeks at that point. You can easily see where the shells fell in fields on Google Earth. Its harder to see where they hit border towns. You can also go back to June and see the reports of Russian people killed and buildings hit.

      About the second week of July around July 13th I think, Russia finally made a statement that they had enough and reserved a right to direct supressive fire at the Ukrainian military units firing into Russia. You can find it on the “Voice of Sevastopol” website if you really care. You can also see all the incidents of firing into Russia. Shortly after this, the Ukrainian Army found itself under this supressive fire from Amvrosiivka to Izvarino.

      “2) There were no COMBAT OPERATIONS by the Ukrainian army prior to July 17 that affected any airspace above the already established restrictions over Eastern Ukraine.”

      Conducting aerial combat operations just underneath civil aviation is an action that affects the civil aviation airspace since it must be expected to draw return fire from the ground if possible for those being bombed. Stop trying to whitewash Ukraine.

      “The ONLY COMBAT OPERATIONS that this Russian NOTAM may refer to might be the actions of the RUSSIAN army and air force in their actions of downing a Ukrainian AN26 of July 14 along the Russian border, bombing Snizhne on July 15, and downing a Ukrainian SU25 on July 16.”

      I’m quite convinced that both of these incidents were due to actions of the Militia.

      “And… The anticipation of some COMBAT operations on July 17 itself using the now infamous BUK system from the 53rd BUK brigade in Kursk which downed MH17 on the 17th.”

      Baseless speculation with zero evidence. You act as though endlessly repeating the track-a-trail nonsense makes it true.

      Where are any pictures or videos of the BUK or the lowloader off a dash cam or an disinterested civilian bystander? There are hundreds of videos and pictures in total of every major convoy that transited both Donbass and Ukraine as well as Russia during this time. But not a single photo of the jounrey of BUK from Donetsk Russia to Donetsk Ukraine, or the supposed return journey from Snizhne to Lugansk or Lugansk to Donetsk Russia.

      In fact, what is really interesting is that the Donetsk to Snizhne trail and the Lugansk video, if taken simply as they are, instead of having a fantasy leg seen by no one involving Russia, would point to a journey of a BUK from the Ukrainian 156th Regiment bases in Donetsk to Snizhne and a seperate journey from the 156th Regiment base in Lugansk towards who knows where. I say this because when you search aerial imagery for BUK’s in the Donbass at this time, the only places they are to be seen is precisely on those bases of the Ukrainian 156th Regiment.

      • Andrew said “There is ample evidence, including multiple videos, that Russia was firing GRAD missile across the border INTO Ukraine on July 16.”

        YAWN … and … so … what?

        Ukrainian get pounded by indiscriminate Russian GRAD attacks from over the border, then hypocritically get accused of firing into Russia in a NOTAM, and “YAWN” is your response ?
        https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/02/17/origin-of-artillery-attacks/

        You have got to be F***ing kidding, Andrew.

        And “Ukraine’s military had been firing artillery into Russia for weeks at that point.”

        No Andrew, that is simply not true, and neither do you have any evidence for that.

        • Hector Reban // August 8, 2015 at 8:07 am // Reply

          And of course mister double standards doesn´t care about the killings of Russians by his beloved fascist state.

        • “hypocritically get accused of firing into Russia in a NOTAM”

          The NOTAM dispassionately states that there is firing from the land of Ukraine towards the land and airspace of Russia. It doesn’t try to lay out blame like you are doing.

          “And “Ukraine’s military had been firing artillery into Russia for weeks at that point.””

          “No Andrew, that is simply not true, and neither do you have any evidence for that.”

          Okay, fine. This is NOT evidence of shell craters on Google Earth.

          Its very large and messy gopher holes instead, or perhaps Jackalopes.

          Or maybe Russia also fires artillery shells at itself, just like the Militia does in Donbass.

          On August 15 imagery
          47°51’42.38″N, 38°51’29.16″E
          47°51’21.70″N, 38°52’16.98″E
          47°51’24.45″N, 38°52’37.52″E
          47°51’31.07″N, 38°51’31.60″E

          On September 14, 2014 imagery
          47°52’19.61″N, 38°55’5.73″E
          47°52’23.29″N, 38°55’46.55″E

          On August 7 2014 imagery
          48° 3’48.13″N, 39°50’40.07″E
          48° 4’4.59″N, 39°50’21.50″E
          48°18’11.07″N, 39°57’34.66″E

          Below is a selection of easily available stories about weeks of shells falling in Russia:

          Russian Border Post shelled June 21
          http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/1973-rossiyskiy-pogranpunkt-razrushen-ukrainskimi-karatelyami-tyazhelo-ranen-tamozhennik.html

          Gukovo shelled – June 28
          http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2272-snaryady-karateley-upali-na-territoriyu-rossii.html

          Bust Stop shelled in Gukovo on July 11
          http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2702-na-rossiyskom-kpp-gukovo-ukrainskiy-snaryad-povredil-zdanie-avtovokzala.html

          One killed, two wounded from shelled house in Donetsk Russia, July 13
          http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2772-v-rostovskoy-oblasti-v-zhiloy-dom-popal-snaryad-vypuschennyy-s-territorii-ukrainy.html

          4 shelling incidents in Donetsk Russia, July 14
          http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2778-rossiyskiy-doneck-obstrelyali-chetyre-raza-za-sutki.html

          • Andrew,

            On August 15 imagery on
            47°51’42.38″N, 38°51’29.16″E
            shows nothing at all. Not even a gopher hole.

            at 47°51’21.70″N, 38°52’16.98″E
            some pot-holes in a burned wheat field.
            No suggestion about who made these holes, and when, and if they originated from shelling, from which direction the shells came, not who or what caused these black spots.

            47°51’24.45″N, 38°52’37.52″E.
            Some argument.

            And note that ALL of these locations are into wheat fields, not any sort of military target or civilian.
            Nothing.

            About 47°51’31.07″N, 38°51’31.60″E,
            That is the Russian side of the border crossing.
            See how the buildings are so nice and undamaged, and the driveways beautiful and clean ?
            Compare that the Ukrainian side, at 47.866133° N, 38.858358° E.

            Put THAT in GoogleEarth Aug 15 history.

            No comment required.

          • Regarding your links to news articles :

            The first on “Russian Border Post shelled June 21” (1973-rossiyskiy-pogranpunkt-razrushen-ukrainskimi-karatelyami-tyazhelo-ranen-tamozhennik) :

            “Today the Russian border point Novoshahtinsk Ukrainian security forces under fire. There is destruction. Seriously wounded a customs officer. The Russian side expresses its strong protest over this aggressive action. We demand from the Kiev-term and immediate investigation of all the circumstances of the crime , violates the basic norms and principles of international law “, – said the Russian Foreign Ministry.

            Note the “SAID THE RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY” part.

            The second one on “Gukovo shelled – June 28” (2272-snaryady-karateley-upali-na-territoriyu-rossii.html) :

            “Shooting from Ukraine lasted from 8 am to 10 am Moscow time, – said a source in law enforcement bodies of the Rostov region.”

            Note the “SAID A SOURCE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT BODIES” part.

            The third one “Bust Stop shelled in Gukovo on July 11” (2702-na-rossiyskom-kpp-gukovo-ukrainskiy-snaryad-povredil-zdanie-avtovokzala.html)

            “The explosion has damaged bus at the Russian checkpoint .”
            Yet the pictures do no show any bus, nor bus stop.
            And what makes them believe that the Ukrainians did that any way ?

            The fourth one : “One killed, two wounded from shelled house in Donetsk Russia, July 13” (2772-v-rostovskoy-oblasti-v-zhiloy-dom-popal-snaryad-vypuschennyy-s-territorii-ukrainy.html) :

            “According to the source RIA Novosti, the city of Donetsk in Russia has got some bombs from Ukraine, one of them hit the house.”

            Note the “ACCORDING TO THE SOURCE RIA NOVOSTI” part, and

            “”According to preliminary data, one person was killed and two wounded. It – civilians, “- a spokesman said.”

            Note the “A SPOKESMAN SAID” part.

            The fifth one “4 shelling incidents in Donetsk Russia, July 14″ (2778-rossiyskiy-doneck-obstrelyali-chetyre-raza-za-sutki.html) is VERY interesting, since it mentions :

            1) ” There were seven of munitions, some of them did not explode. Now, the explosives work “, – said the representative of the Russian border department of the FSB in the region.”

            Ah. An FSB guy making a statement directly “reported that in the city were found unexploded ordnance.”.

            2) “According to the official representative of the Investigative Department of the Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation in the Southern Federal District Vladimir Markin, the Office has opened a criminal investigation into the shelling by the article ” murder of two or more persons committed socially dangerous way, a group of persons . ”

            Mmmm, Exactly WHICH persons were murdered here ?

            3) “In turn, the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry issued a statement that the Ukrainian military is not involved in the shelling of the Russian territory.”

            Which so far appears to be correct.

            In FACT, on July 14, a Ukrainian jet was downed from high altitude, and up till today we are still arguing if the Russians shot it down directly, or if the Russians already moved a BUK onto Ukrainian soil when they shoot down that SU26
            on July 14 (so that the “pro-Russian separatists could claim responsibility).

            The JIT thinks it was the first (BUK was not moved onto Ukraine territory until AFTER the July14 incident).

          • Rob:

            The coordinates are for the general area of the shelling, and I was expecting you would scroll around and see all the shell craters around the coordinate. You can’t be bothered to do that? Or do you expect me to provide exact coordinates of every shell crater and also a precise line to show the actual borderline since Google is approximate? Sorry, I don’t have time for it.

      • To Andrew: this website main purpose is to present facts and prevent propaganda from all sides in the conflict as much as possible. Now while things are not black/white I urge you and others to present additional proof for statements.

        So I like you to present URLs which provide info of your statment:
        YAWN … and … so … what? Ukraine’s military had been firing artillery into Russia for weeks at that point. You can easily see where the shells fell in fields on Google Earth. Its harder to see where they hit border towns. You can also go back to June and see the reports of Russian people killed and buildings hit.

        • Admin:

          I provided the coordinates and dates on Google Earth and links to articles in a separate post.

          Here are the threats from Russia for retaliatory artillery strikes on the Ukrainian border offensive. They are autotranslated by Yandex.

          July 11
          http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2698-poslednee-preduprezhdenie-dlya-ukrainy.html

          Last warning for Ukraine

          Author: Harmony from 11.07.2014, 12:22

          Russia has warned Kiev the last time: let the border – will get what you deserve. Do not be confused by the relative softness of the wording in the official report. For the Foreign Minister of any country is a very strong statement.

          “The actions of the Ukrainian side are a gross violation of the fundamental principles of international law. The Russian side said the Ukrainian side strongly protest and demands to stop the shelling of the Russian territory. In case of further recurrence of similar cases all responsibility for the consequences will fall on the authorities in Kiev”, — said in a statement.

          We will remind: on Thursday morning, employees of the customs post Donetsk in the Rostov region and socialized at this point, the refugees were forced to evacuate because of the battle near the neighboring Ukrainian border crossing of Izvarino. Several shells exploded in the Russian territory.
          This is not the first such situation. Earlier attacks repeatedly subjected to customs posts Novoshakhtinsk and Donetsk.

          July 14
          http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2781-rossiya-gotovit-otvetnyy-udar-hunte.html

          Russia is preparing a retaliatory strike junta

          Author: morem7 from 14.07.2014, 10:48

          Today in the Russian press reported that Moscow plans to put “pinpoint strikes” on the territory of Ukraine in response to the shelling of Donetsk, the Rostov region the Ukrainian military.
          As stated by the newspaper “Kommersant” a source close to the Kremlin, Moscow is considering “applying point retaliatory strikes” against Ukraine. According to the representative of the authorities of the Russian Federation, the Russian side “knows where they shoot”

          We are not talking about a large-scale action, and exclusively focused on single strikes on the positions of where is the fire on the Russian territory.

          July 13 surrounding the Russian Donetsk four times was fired from the village of Izvarino on the territory of Ukraine, reports the correspondent of LifeNews. About 9 am in the explosion outside the Baltic killed a local resident, was also wounded 55-year-old woman and her daughter. The latest attack occurred at about 20:30.

          • Andrew said “I provided the coordinates and dates on Google Earth and links to articles in a separate post.”

            Yes. And I commented on each one of these.
            The all turn out to be unfounded, where your Google Earth coordinates present nothing substantial, and rather hypocritical since the Ukrainian check point nearby was bombed to the ground.

            And your links appear to be statements by authority which have ZERO evidence in their support.

        • Admin:

          I sent three posts in with multiple links to answer these questions. Please release them from spam if you have them. If not, I will try to repost.

          • I just released the post from the spam folder

          • Andrew, the hypocrisy of your statements is blatantly obvious :

            from just ONE of your references :
            ““Today the Russian border point Novoshahtinsk Ukrainian security forces under fire. There is destruction. Seriously wounded a customs officer. The Russian side expresses its strong protest over this aggressive action. We demand from the Kiev-term and immediate investigation of all the circumstances of the crime , violates the basic norms and principles of international law “, – said the Russian Foreign Ministry.”

            Let us look at that Novoshahtinsk border point :
            Enter 47.846460°, 39.757639° in GoogleEarth.

            Did you take a good look at the Russian and the Ukrainian side of this border crossing ?

            And do you now see that the hypocrisy of this statement by the Russian Foreign Ministry is absolutely, incomprehensibly mind boggling, to the point of making you sick to the stomach ?

      • Andrew, you state-
        I’m quite convinced that both of these incidents were due to actions of the Militia.
        You listed three incidents above that.

        As far as track the trail of the BUK, I encourage you to read this and know what others know about it and what representatives of the DNR and LNR and Russian military talked about.
        In it use your browser ‘find’ function for the terms – ‘How come “BUK”‘ or ‘Откуда прибыл «Бук»’ and read there.
        The who article is interesting, but that part is relevant to what is known.

        http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/69181.html

        Ukraine is right with what they stated from beginning, it was Russian BUK from Russia, with Russian missiles that came into Ukraine.
        A statement about Ukrainian military firing into Russia is BS and you know it.
        The Kremlin all along has looked for a reason to invade Donbas on a humanitarian mission or to declare war on Ukraine.
        They would not have ‘just let go’ Ukrainian military firing into Russia towards their base in Rostov or towards their border checkpoints.
        That statement is such an outright lie.

        Hector, to you I say, have you once spoke out against the torture basements? the Strelkov ordered executions? the kidnappings? The GRAD attack on Mariupol? The Attack on the bus stop? The parading of POWs against the Geneva convention? The execution and mutilation of POWs?
        Any condemnation of Motorola for saying yes, I executed 15 of them in cold blood? What of it? Other artillery attacks by terrorists on civilian buildings? Using children as human shields at checkpoints? Using apartments hospitals and churches to fire next to? And then claim when forces returned fire exactly where the tank or artillery was, they claimed look at what UA military is doing? The fact that terrorist forces were bombing whole villages, then come riding in on white horse with Koloradi ribbon saying – did you just see what UA military did to you? We will stop them and protect you for 60 million UAH? – And then when the townsfolk said – no, we will not pay your extortion fees, the terrorists go outside the town and destroy it?
        Each one of those killed BOTH ethnic Russians and Ukrainians and all PROVEN to have happened and to be orchestrated by the Kremlin agents or their proxies.

        Fare thee well

        • Please keep your post readable and to the point. Keep on topic. This site is on MH17, not on GRAD attacks and torture.

          • as far as readable, do you mean no Cryllic or Russian?
            Or have I failed somewhere in grammar?
            I have been told I have run on sentences, but I try to avoid it.
            And I apologize for using the term Koloradi to all those who are proud of their Russian ancestors who did fight for a fight that was worth fighting for, not this stupid vova hybrid war.

            Fare thee well

          • You know perfectly what I mean. Fine to exchange views but this is not a chit-chat website. Next time I am going to edit comments and remove irrelevant information.
            I like to discussion to be readable for anyone. Otherwise valueable info gets lost in non-relevant text.

            This warning applies to each and everyone.

          • Thank you for clarifying.
            And your rules on this are understood.
            I will attempt to hold my tongue more, and just stick to facts without the expressive adjectives.
            And try to keep it more short and sweet.
            And stick to the subject of the article you wrote.
            Thank you for the reminder.

            Fare thee well

          • Thx. I have to admit I hardly read your comments just because they are too long/not to the point. You loose audience because of that.

  14. Adrew August 5, 2015 at 2:41 pm wrote:
    ‘I know it is from FlightRadar24. They are the same people who said their data said MH17 flew over Snizhne before making a 180 degree turn and crashing (last data point is 48.0403, 38.7728). They have little credibility in my eyes for fine detail once they insisted on such a preposterous occurrence.”

    Important news for me is that;”before making a 180 degree turn and crashing”
    Do you have more details on this subject? Any links ??

    Now I analyze the debris field distribution. What I can read from debris area is that boeing during crushing was flying northwest . So it should turn about 180 dgrees. Certainly Boeing does not disintegrated before Rozsypne ( last FDR) from explosion of the rocket from left side ( official propaganda)
    Fragments of debris couldn’t travel backward and against the rocket shock wave. Compare here:
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-eKX4lCIAAe1_h.jpg:large

    • It is difficult to make a blanket statement like – Fragments of debris couldn’t travel backward and against the rocket shock wave.
      Without knowing all the variables and taking into account all the evidence.
      The plane is able to direct its own flight, so could have it directed itself and flown in an opposite manner when the cabin was sheered off?
      Things such as altitude, head wind, speed into a headwind, downdrafts, was one or more engines active when the pilots cabin broke off, and if so where the controls stuck in a particular aspect in xyz flight, were they jerking in a random fashion, were the random pieces to the 180 degree flight all light ones that carried in the wind the way a kite does when you let go of the string? Was the tail the only part that carried that way?
      Could an exploding wing send parts cascading to the winds on various vectors?

      All those and more could give a crash site location behind the actual detonation of the missile and break up points.

      As far as 180 degree articles, search 180 and MH17, you should be able to find a few.
      But like I said, there are a lot of variables to concern yourself with when your describing an event of an object that fell 5 miles and was travelling in excess of 500 mph.
      I can crash a car into a brick wall at 50 mph and not many of the parts would pass through the brick wall and many would bounce off.
      I could blow up a sailboat under full sail and due to current and wind it would go backwards from the path it was traveling and the detonation point as it sank to the bottom of the ocean.
      Just trying to inform you it is a lot more complex then you allege and a lot of errors by not taking that into account can throw you a lot of errors.

      Fare thee well

      • The point is that,the remains are divided into the two groups : aft parts on the south of Habrove, and forward parts near the Petropavlivka. There is almost nothing between.
        This can easily be explained, if we assume that the plane was moving from east to north-west and there was an inside explosion in the middle part of the fuselage causing the particles to separate into two groups.
        It’s completely congruent with my theory of multiple attack on Boeing.

        • doradcar305,
          The debris field of MH17 is consistent with a simple direct approach (from the NW) with the intersect point consistent with the Dutch Safety Board’s assessment of the FDR data.

          There is no reason to believe that MH17 made a 180 and came back, nor that it exploded in the middle of the fuselage as you appear to believe.

          • Rostov radar, DSB report and FR24 do not show any 180 degrees turn. Any further posts suggesting this will be deleted from now on. Discuss this on other websites if you want.

          • admin your comment from August 10, 2015 at 8:21 am is addressed to me not to Rob I guess. Rostov radar, and FR24 shows Completely different routes for Mh17 in the period of time 13:20- 13:21. Rostov route shows turn to the left and this better explain location of the debris. How you know that rapid turn left of the boeing in the last seconds was impossible ? Radasr could not register it because they do not record positions on a continuous basis. I’m looking for something what could confirm this. The debris field confirm, some witness confirm also.
            For example witness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R77oTvCgjlk&spfreload=10 (2:39 video) witness says that after the explosion one group of debris flew one way and the other in the opposite.
            You can suppress discusion of that subject but but it will be no good for the explanation of the problem.

          • Admin:

            FR24 gives a last point over Snizhne. In order for the plane to crash in Hrabove, it would have to make a 180 degree turn. That is where that comes from.

            Rostov radar shows nothing like the FR24 path to Snizhne.

          • A possible explanation for what Rostov radar shows was the impact and the follow through of the missile after it detonated.
            The plane itself squawks.
            And that would be a ‘transponder code or something that is followed by the ATC as genuine, but occasionally strange radar contacts coming to view as the radar makes its sweep.
            Could it have caught the tail end of the missile after the warhead blew and continued to fly?
            It was just a lucky timing that caught that?

            And for the short period it made its radar sweep, it blended MH17 and the missile, but locked on one or the other and the n named it MH17?

            If so, that seems to suggest a near head-on missile collision with the plane.

            Fare thee well

          • The Rostov primary radar shows debris. Remember the cockpit and business class section was cut off by the explosion. Then the fuselage continued and many parts fell off.
            Explained here and confirmed by many experts
            http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/russian-radar-does-not-show-any-ukraine-fighter-aircraft/

            This is a post of Dutch major tv-station NOS
            http://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2030649-geen-straaljager-te-zien-op-russische-radarbeelden-mh17.html

          • Admin
            You have written also that MH17 speed and altitudewas unchanged for 44 seconds after FDR and CVR stopped :
            http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/mh17-speed-and-altitude-unchanged-for-44-seconds-after-fdr-and-cvr-stopped/
            Both radars noticed this.And I’ll take this into account in the consideration.

            ” the cockpit and business class section was cut off by the explosion.”

            But it was not explosion of the BUk befor Rozsypne ( last FDR point)
            Certainly Boeing does not disintegrated before Rozsypne ( last FDR) from explosion of the rocket from left side ( official propaganda)
            Fragments of debris couldn’t travel backward and against the rocket shock wave.
            Some witnesses saw the explosion on the sky and it was not that point befor Rozsypne.

          • Thank you admin, I had not read those two articles yet.
            It is good to see the nationality of my ancestors is up to date on that also.
            Unfortunately, Dutch has not been a language I have not tried yet.

            Good reads, thanks.
            Fare thee well

          • Admin:

            “The Rostov primary radar shows debris.”

            if it is debris, why does the debris stay on radar over Pelahiivka where these is no debris on the ground there? Why is no debris visible on radar near Rozsypne or Petropavlivka on radar? The reference coordinates of the supposed debris on radar are 5 km EAST from the cockpit landing point. Its not like this is a minor distance easily over come by ballistics, and what ballastics would propel debris backwards to the west from that point?

            If this debris marker is the tail or wing, what propels it northeast to the site where those pieces landed?

            These are serious questions to maintain this mark as debris.

          • Andrew: I appreciate some sort of map showing the location of debris found and an overlay of the Rostov radar image. I guess you can provide one?
            At Petropavlivka I believe some smaller parts were found. The largest part I am aware of foud there is one of the engine nacelles. Also some parts of the cockpit roof were found in this area. Most likely these smaller debris were not picked up by radar.

            >>The reference coordinates of the supposed debris on radar are 5 km EAST from the cockpit landing point. Its not like this is a minor distance easily over come by ballistics, and what ballastics would propel debris backwards to the west from that point?

            I do not understand. The main crash site was at Hrabove. Roughly 6 km northeast of where the cockpit+business class was found.

          • Admin:

            There are all sorts of great maps of the radar track superimposed on imagery and maps on MH17.webtalk.ru.

            I encourage you to use the Yandex browser and let it autotranslate the posts for you. They have much better graphics there than anything I could come up with.

            Many are found on the threads in this area.

            http://mh17.webtalk.ru/viewforum.php?id=6

          • Andrew: you make a claim and I rather have you provide the map which proves your claim. I created a long time ago a blogpost proving that the radar dots are debris.
            It has an overlay and even a video. So lets take this blogpost as a start of discussion.
            http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/russian-radar-does-not-show-any-ukraine-fighter-aircraft/

          • admin said “Andrew: I appreciate some sort of map showing the location of debris found and an overlay of the Rostov radar image. I guess you can provide one?”

            Andrew responded : “Many are found on the threads in this area.
            http://mh17.webtalk.ru/viewforum.php?id=6

            Rrright. Handwaving would be an understatement.
            Andrew, please let us know when you find that map showing the location of debris found and an overlay of the Rostov radar image on the webtalk.ru forum.

            And your second assertion :

            “The reference coordinates of the supposed debris on radar are 5 km EAST from the cockpit landing point. Its not like this is a minor distance easily over come by ballistics, and what ballastics would propel debris backwards to the west from that point?”

            still makes no sense at all.
            To quote admin : “I do not understand. The main crash site was at Hrabove. Roughly 6 km northeast of where the cockpit+business class was found.”

          • Andrew
            Thank you for your maps links.
            I suggest this one for discussion: http://mh17.webtalk.ru/files/0014/75/e6/63157.jpg
            We can see official point of disintegration of the boeing ( N48,1230 E38.5258)and possible routes of debris ( white, green and thin white lines).
            Thin white line is completely nonphysical.
            What force push forward part of fuselage travel several kilometers in northwest direction . Wind was 4m/s from east. Blue planes its Rostov data. The explosion and the crush of the aircraft had to be made between points 17:20:47 , and 17:20:42.
            At the time of disintegration of the aircraft had to be in a position to the north west. This explains Rostov radar data and distribution of debris.

          • The biggest part of debris found in Northwest area of where cockpit was found is Lower Forward Cargo Floor. This is a large pieces of debris and I do not know why it travelled reverse to the route of MH17. http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/

            It is an important question to answer.
            Possible answers:
            a- wind direction at 10km , force of explosion
            b- MH17 was hit at an earlier point than DSB mentioned. This is very unlikely as Rostov radar shows same time of hit as DSB report. For sure not a decrease in speed earlier than what DSB reports. Also I believe it is very unlikely the cockpit could have travelled more than what it did now after being separated from fuselage.

            The main fuselage landed northeast of the cockpit and northeast of the last FDR recording.
            The small blue planes in the image are Rostov radar dots. Perfectly matches the main fuselage and wings dropping
            Nothing unusual to me.

            Wondering what Andrew has to say.

          • admin
            Data from the radar from Rostov are not clear to me. Previously I thought that it show a departure from the route to the left of 13:20:03 So the Russians have shown in this picture: http://www.buran.ru/MH17/vesti1b.jpg.
            Data from Rostov in the table shown in your note: http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/mh17-speed-and-altitude-unchanged-for-44-seconds-after-fdr-and-cvr-stopped/ are presented here: http://mh17.webtalk.ru/files/0014/75/e6/66833.jpg.
            The blue dots on the picture from point 13:20:47 could be explained by debris position. How explain the Rostov data from 13:20:02 to 13:20:42. ? It show a simple stationary flight route and it is consistent with the FR24.
            On the last picture dots from 13:20:22 to 13;20:42 are marked on red.Not valuable data why?? what was happened between 13:20:17 to 13:20:22 ?
            Conclusions:
            1.Boeing could not fall apart at the point of 13:20:03 . according to the distribution of debris.
            2. Boeing could turn left and disintegrate around 13:20:47 point so that part flew north-west, and some in the other side, as it says witnesses.
            3.The map of location of explosions which witnesses say should be drawn up.

          • The radar system used by Rostov ATC used most like extrapolation. It predicts the track of an object. For an explanation see post 6 here http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/554257-russian-radarimages-jetfighters-mh17.html

          • Admin:

            I discussed this previously with Rob here, I guess only he and I paid attention to it.

            In this video we have the supposed Rostov radar recording:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=766ftKQGqls

            At 1:49, the mark of MH17 jumps left and a new mark appears directly behind it to the south.
            At 1:54, the new mark is south of MH17 in a similar position as both move.
            At 1:59 the mark is southeast of MH17 directly to its right.
            At 2:01, the manager fixes a distance and azimuth to the new mark – 54.26 km to TAMAK at 304 degrees.
            At 2:04, both MH17 and the new mark move northwest.
            At 2:09, the new mark disappears
            At 2:18, the new mark reappears to the south of MH17.
            At 2:23, they both move northwest.
            At 2:28, the mark seems to move below MH17 just to its south.
            At 2:43, the mark is now directly behind MH17
            At 2:47, the mark seems to move southwest away from MH17
            At 2:52, the manager has the computer produce a coordinate readout of the location of MH17: 48^07’52″N, 38^38’31″E which is 850 m south of Hrabove. The mark is southwest behind MH17 from that point.
            At 2:57, the mark is moving southwest away from MH17.
            At 3:00, the manager rests the reference coordinate marker near the extra mark and reads out: 48^06’53″N, 38^37’16″E . This point is in the woods just east of the north end of Pelahiivka. The extraneous mark is just to the southwest of this point.
            At 3:08, we can discern the extra mark moving southwest.
            At 3:16, the mark moves due north.
            At 3:19, MH17’s mark vanishes (13:22:17 UTC).
            At 3:26, the mark turns and moves southeast.
            At 3:36, the mark moves southwest.
            At 3:55, the mark moves northeast.
            At 4:14, the mark moves northeast.
            At 4:21, the mark has its coordinates read out: 48^07’07″N, 38^37’23″E. This slightly northeast of the north end of Pelahivvka over the woods.
            At 4:43, we see the mark moving southwest again.
            At 4:59, the mark has its coordinates read out: 48^06’56″N, 38^36’40″E. This is over the residential area of the north end of Pelahiivka.
            At 5:12, we see the mark is moving slowly southwest.
            At 5:22, we see the mark is moving slowly south.
            At 5:32, the mark moves slowly northwest.
            At 5:42, the mark moves faster to the north-northwest.
            At 5:50, the mark moves southwest again.
            At 6:00, it seems to move north and it is the end of the Rostov tape although the You Tube video goes on with everything held static at 13:24:59 UTC.

            If this is debris, how does it stay in the air for 160 seconds after MH17 vanishes?

            If the wind is going northwest and this explains the debris field from Rozsypne over Petropavlivka and beyond, why does htis “debris” seem to move about entirely different?

            If this is a large piece of debris, which piece is it and how did it not end up landing very near Pelahiivka where its coordinates are read out – what finally makes it fly somewhere else after it has been spiraling around?

            Data point – during KAL 902 shootdown, Soviet radar was supposedly sensitive enough to detect a 4 m long piece of wing as a mark and per wikipedia: “Soviets mistook the part of the wing that had fallen off Flight 902 for a winged missile and dispatched another Su-15 interceptor to fire at it.” Apparently they thought it a cruise missile or similar. So why do we not see marks for the other major pieces of debris of MH17 on Rostov radar? The cockpit and tail section for example.

          • doradcar305 said :
            “I suggest this one for discussion: http://mh17.webtalk.ru/files/0014/75/e6/63157.jpg
            We can see official point of disintegration of the boeing ( N48,1230 E38.5258)and possible routes of debris ( white, green and thin white lines).
            Thin white line is completely nonphysical.
            What force push forward part of fuselage travel several kilometers in northwest direction . Wind was 4m/s from east. ”

            As discussed before on this blog and on metabunk :
            Low altitude wind was about 4m/s from the east.
            High altitude wind was about 40 m/s from the south.
            Net result : debris drifts NNW.

            admin said : “The biggest part of debris found in Northwest area of where cockpit was found is Lower Forward Cargo Floor. This is a large pieces of debris and I do not know why it travelled reverse to the route of MH17.”

            Admin, I’ve spend many, many comments in your blog on this, explaining the drag equation. And that if you do the physics, everything that comes off the plane at high altitude, drifts in the wind.

            Did you not follow that discussion ? Or did do you disagree with my math ?

            admin said “Wondering what Andrew has to say.”

            I hope you meant that in a sarcastic kind of way, since Andrew was the one postulating a intersect point at Pol’ove, which triggered me to point out that he did not do his math on the drag equation right.

          • Admin, your guests here are playing a game with you, spreading doubt and mis-information and plain made-up statements about what happened to MH17 by the buckets.

            But I’m seriously starting to wonder if you are any better.
            Specifically, when you said ” I do not know why it travelled reverse to the route of MH17″ were you honest ?
            Do you honestly not understand how that debris traveled NNW ?
            Did you honestly not read or understand the discussion on your own blog about the drag equation ?

            And when you said ““Wondering what Andrew has to say.””

            With Andrew being a main contributor to mis-information on your blog were you sarcastic ? Or not ?

            A clear and direct answer to these questions would be very much appreciated.

          • Rob: we do not know what happened to MH17. It was 99,9% sure shot down by a BUK. Which country? There is no hard evidence. Evidence we know so far has serious doubts.
            Ukraine must have known about presence of a BUK. It is possible they made false evidence. It just cannot be ruled out.
            And for the sake of 298 killed people I search for the truth.
            There could be various scenario’s. I appreciate any opinion as long as there are some valid or reasonable arguments.

            Let me decide if people are playing a game. You do not have to do that.So far I just had to ban a single user for commenting complete nonsense.

            Doubting if I am also spreading mis-information is your opinion and up to you. If you take some more time to read my posts you will notice I am not biased.
            If you believe you are wasting your time here please go.

            Writing blogs on MH17 and reading news takes an enourmous amount of time. I did not have time to read the thread on the drag , route etc of debris to the NW in full. I might do that later.

          • Correction on the hgh-altitude wind : not 40 m/s but 40 km/hour (about 11 m/s).
            http://earth.nullschool.net/#2014/07/17/1800Z/wind/isobaric/250hPa/orthographic=-334.04,48.93,3000
            Combined with the 4 m/s low-altitude wind, most debris that comes of the main fuselage (including large pieces) will drift between NW and NNW.

          • Rob on your linked moving map of winds I can see north-east wind in the area of boeing crushing. Another question is how long this hgh altitude wind could act on the debris?

          • Rob:

            “With Andrew being a main contributor to mis-information on your blog”

            Your continual ad hominem’s do nothing to convince anyone of your points. The same goes to your continued lack of an answer to my question to supply at least the method of the derivation of the last FDR point and your appeal to authority of the DSB report graphical picture to silence those who ask a question or posit a different scenario.

            Quite frankly, the DSB graphical picture, if that is it for “proof” available to us on this very important subject is as lacking in power of conviction as the US Embassy Snizhne launch power point drawn on a Digital Globe montage of imagery.

          • admin said :

            “Rob: we do not know what happened to MH17. It was 99,9% sure shot down by a BUK. Which country? There is no hard evidence. Evidence we know so far has serious doubts.”

            Exactly WHICH evidence we know so far has serious doubts, admin ?

            Admin said “Ukraine must have known about presence of a BUK. It is possible they made false evidence. It just cannot be ruled out.”

            Neither can it be ruled out that the US placed a bomb on the plane which they detonated by satellite.

            And neither can it be ruled out that Israel (Mossad) shot the plane down.

            And neither one of these scenarios (including yours that Ukraine made false evidence) has ANY evidence in their support.

            ZERO evidence that Ukraine shot this plane down.
            NOTHING,

            There is even PROOF that the Russian Defense Ministry LIED when they tried to present evidence of Ukraine’s involvement in shooting down MH17.

            So why do you continue to question Ukraine ? You are WASTING everyone’s time by doing so.

            That is bias, admin.

            One missile, One BUK system, One commander.
            No ambiguity.

            Please clear your mind and follow the evidence. Not the mis-information that your guests are spreading.

            Have a nice day, and I wish you and your blog well.

          • Simple answer: if you do not like content go away please! I have not seen 100% evidence Russia did it. 99% is not enough to stop investigating.

          • 99 % is your number.
            If you want to spend effort discussing the remaining 1 %, fine.

            But I think it would be much more interesting to find out the odds that Russia shot down MH17 deliberately.

            And if not, the odds that the Russian Military made a colossal mistake.

            THAT would be a constructive discussion.

          • Okay. I do not believe Russia shot down MH17 on purpose (assuming Russian is responsible). What would be the benefit?
            So it is likely to be a mistake they shot down a civil aircraft.

            The big question: how can a trained crew (I do not think rebels manned the TELAR) could make this mistake?
            Possible: they believed the airspace was closed because they were told so by separatists.
            Or they just did not have enough time to ID the target.
            And they were told by a spotter on the phone their real target (IL76/An26) was nearby and flying towards them.

          • Admin:

            “And they were told by a spotter on the phone their real target (IL76/An26) was nearby and flying towards them.”

            Ukraine’s story is an AN-26 and the Strelkov-Info post was also about an AN-26. Lets not confuse the issue with the IL-76 which has been brought in later to muddy the waters. A trained Russian crew ought to have been able to immediately tell the difference of an AN-26 and MH17 if the Gorlivka spotter story is true.

            The radar of the TELAR would not have seen MH17 if it was scanning the altitude and presumed location of the AN-26 because it is so much higher and faster. MH17 would have been above and in front of the scan of the radar looking at 7 km for an AN26. On the other hand, a radar scan looking very high for a fast plane and seeing MH17 should have been blindingly obvious to the crew that they were looking in the wrong place, as the radar would have been set to scan a full 7 degrees higher in the sky than it should have been for the supposed plane, effectively leaving them blind to all low level aircraft.

          • admin, thank you for starting to talk about intent or accident.
            Can we, for now, set aside our “belief” and questions about “benefit” ?
            You and me do not think like Putin.

            Instead, let us follow logic and rational thought, and see where it leads us.

            For starters, IF this TELAR was in contact with a command vehicle (which uses a “Snow Drift” radar vehicle with civilian IFF for targeting), then MH17 was shot down intentionally.

            Do you agree ?

          • If the TELAR was connected to a Snow Drift the chances MH17 was shot down intentionally are highly increased.

          • Second, IF this TELAR was acting without command link from a command vehicle, then it must have been acting on command from a “spotter”.

            And, lo and behold, we have evidence of a call from a spotter.
            Happened 2 minutes before MH17 was shot down, and the spotter called Igor Bezler,

            Now, couple of things on that spotter call.
            2 minutes before last FDR point, MH17 was over Horlivka. So that is where that spotter must have been when he observed the “high flying birdie”.
            If you subtract the 30 sec for the spotter to pick up the phone and dial Bezler, and the duration of the call itself (some 30 sec in total), and the (30 sec) flight time and the time for the TELAR to go from standby to target aquisition, and the time it took and target lock, and pressing the button to fire (another 30 sec or so), that leaves Bezler only 30 sec to pass the message on to the BUK crew.

            Which means that either :
            (1) Bezler was in direct command of the BUK in Snizhne, or
            (2) the Bezler call is a distraction from who really was in control, or
            (3) the entire Bezler call is faked by Ukrainians.

            For (3), there is no evidence. Even Bezler himself acknowledges that it is him in that call, although he claims the call was about another day and another plane. He does not specify which other day and there is NO other plane downed in his area under cloudy weather….

            For (2), the only reason why anyone would want to ‘distract’ PRIOR to a shootdown of any plane is if there was INTENT. Which rules out an accident.

            Which leaves (1). That Bezler was in control.
            That I find unlikely.
            I don’t know much about the command structure in Donbass at the time, but AFAIK, Bezler was in command of Horlivka. NOT the Snizhne area.
            Maybe somebody else could comment on that.

            All of that does not leave much space for an “accident”, and that is not even considering the question if the crew was trained or not.

          • I agree the shotdown was not an accident. Ofcourse separatists wanted to shot down Ukraine *military* aircraft. They did in the past.
            I not not think MH17 was intentionally shot down in the sense the BUK operator knew his target was a civilian aircraft. There is no motive for it.

            The spotter , if a true story, must have thought the dot in the sky was a IL76.

          • admin said “I agree the shotdown was not an accident. Ofcourse separatists wanted to shot down Ukraine *military* aircraft.”

            That would be considered an accident under my arguments.
            After all, I only discussed how the BUK could have received its order to shoot down a target.

          • Hector Reban // August 14, 2015 at 4:26 pm //

            For 3, SBU forgeries, is no evidence, says Rob. Of course Rob hasn’t seen all the forensics debunking these Bezler taps as doctored nor has he reviewed the illogical contents of the taps which in no way add up to reality.

            Rational people don’t believe in a spotter not able to distinguish a B777 from a freighter in height and speed. Rational people can’t believe that a plane that went down at Enakievo in fact was the same as the one from the Grabowo crash.

            The story of the SBU is so clearly fake its almost saddening. The Bezler-major-Grek taps(btw Grek had been detained by Azov on the 15th) don’t have any relation to the MH17 crash, but the suggestion is added by messing with the time and date and fabricating a linkage to surprised separatist finding out a passenger plane crashed.

            Maybe because Rob wants to BELIEVE in Russian intent, a story he is peddling for months without any scientific methodologies. If anyone is putting forward propaganda, its Rob.

        • Oh. And yes. Read up about the posts about the drag equation (and the laws of physics in general).

          It will help you debunk the nonsense that your guests are spreading about the MH17 debris pattern.

          • In your comment above you ask what would be the benefit of Russian intentionally targeting a civilian airliner.
            I think the answer is obvious for that moment in history.

            The Kremlin thought they could manipulate the media of the world and inside Russia into enough confusion the could enter Ukraine as a peacekeeping force some what legitimately and fully occupy it as they did in Crimea.

            Once they occupy it is is like the saying – possession is nine tenths the law.
            Would the “Western” nations of the world start a global war over it to kick them out?
            I think vova was betting they would not, BHO wants to hold onto his Peace Prize award, so would condemn it but not go to war over it, the USA did allow Russia’s actions in Georgia.

            What would be the result of an intentional airline disaster if it was only Russian citizens onboard as the SBU briefing mentioned that the crew got the wrong civilian airliner and it was supposed to be a Russian one?

            Russia would pay damages, at the most 100 million dollars.
            Could do the investigation themselves and claim it was a mistake.
            The would have Ukraine back in their control which they could continue to embezzle from.

            Sure, as a result there would be global condemnations after the investigation was done, if it got out that it was the Kremlin responsible, but they were hoping to control both media and the investigation and keep the global community out.

            At the worst, vova was expecting global condemnation but he could live with it, Russia did after KAL007.
            Also a settlement of a minor amount when you consider the benefits of forcing Ukraine back under its wing and being able to control their economy and natural resources.

            There could be no bad side for the Kremlin if it was a Russian manufactured Russian owned plane with only Russian passengers.
            Control of investigation, control of media, control of Ukraine, and the support from the Russian population for the Kremlin going in as peacekeepers with its own military.

            A potential complete win if things went according to plan.
            To me, that is what I see as a possible reason for the Kremlin doing it intentionally.

            Fare thee well

          • Do not understand what you say.
            Do you mean that Russian BUK crew believed the aircraft they intentionally hit was in fact a Russian airline? Do you take that SBU story serious about Russia made a mistake and wanted to shot down an Aeroflot Airbus on its way to Cyprus?

          • Yes, admin, I think you must realize the possibility they are correct.

            In many theories we are trying to think like someone who values life would rationalize something.
            With the international lies about little green men nuclear black mail and the open discussions about a tactical nuclear strike in Ukraine, and others perpetuated in the Kremlin sponsored media and by vova himself, it values looking at.

            These people have in many instances dressed as Ukrainian soldiers and committed atrocities and war crimes of intentionally targeting civilian structures and being caught doing it.

            http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/08/11/lnr-factory-sews-fake-ukrainian-military-uniforms/

            There are all the army uniforms they gained when they took over Crimea as well.
            The blatant attack on Mariupol civilians also suggests that they will use terrorism and increasing fear to attempt to achieve their goals.

            There are so many BIG lies by the Kremlin and its proxy agents in Eastern Ukraine it is not funny.

            They have Russian generals in their directing the fighting.
            They have all kinds of only Russian used military equipment there, all the leaders of the Novarossiyan project are Russian.
            The human shields they are using, the shooting from right alongside apartment buildings with tanks and artillery, the other items I have mentioned before.
            This is not the way a rational people would conduct a war, I think.

            The simple fact that Russia is inside another sovereign nation and conducting a war, or even stealing territory as they are now doing in Georgia – border changed 800 meters just the other day – has to scream at you something doesn’t it?

            Yes, I fully do think the possibility exist for the SBU theory, I am not 100 percent convinced it is true, but I think it holds to the nature of vova and the Kremlin acting in keeping NATO away from its borders and preventing the loss of Moscow’s cash cows of manufacturing and smuggling routes to Europe.

            I know there are a LOT of questionable or not completely proven statements in my comment here, some opinions also.
            Feel free to censor my comment appropriately.

            I do feel it is more likely scenario then an accidental targeting of a civilian plane that was mistaken for an AN26 personally.

            There are still a few things that do not add up for me, to make any concrete conclusion and think this IS what happened, since I do not have a lot of the evidence at my fingertips.
            I would not count an intentional targeting covert operation by the Kremlin out yet.

            Honestly, I do think their is enough possibility that the Russian leader would make the decision to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence and the possibility of NATO out, that he would make that decision in the name of Russian national security.
            The targeting of a Russian civilian plane inside Ukraine would make those things possible.

            Fare thee well

          • Last reminder to keep your comments on topic and to the point!

          • And yes, I do understand there COULD be a difference between what actually happened, and what the prosecutors charge and prove in court.
            Similar to, a murderer may be able to proven guilty of breaking in and entering, but it may not be able to be proven that his is guilty of murder although a majority of circumstantial evidence points to that, they did not find the smoking gun let’s say.

            So yes, proving this theory would almost be an impossible thing to prove, you would have to be a fly on the wall in vova’s most private meetings.
            But that does not mean that that is not what actually happened.
            It would be a giant task for an investigation to prove this.

            Fare thee well

          • And the final thing would be, the SBU must have had some intelligence for this specific theory.
            They would not have thrown this out there haphazardly I think.
            There must be some reason, and I do not think this smells of propaganda.
            Too many clues in it, too many items, to detailed.
            They must have gained some intelligence to form this opinion.
            With them being the closest ones to the Kremlin it would be likely they have their own spy apparatus inside Red Square and informants.

            Fare thee well

          • boggled:

            “the SBU must have had some intelligence for this specific theory”

            Yes, sure, the SBU solved MH17 within hours.

            But what, 580 days later they can’t figure out the Maidan snipers? 470 days, and no indictments of the mass murder in Odessa? 460 days, and not a single member of the National Guard called to account for shooting unarmed civilians in the street in Mariupol as if they were dogs? What, they can’t figure out that one either? All of which happened on video?

            And please, don’t bore us again with your conspiracy theories of Russians burning other Russians alive in Odessa and then running away to Transnistria and similar preposterous and nonsensical rubbish. Or the Berkut shooting themselves (with what, rubber bullets and bean bags fired by shotguns?) before turning their guns (what guns – the ones firing bean bags? are you saying they somehow shot hunting rifle rounds from a shotgun?) on the protestors.

        • admin, I realize that this discussion (about intent versus accident) is not in the right post (about Churkin’s statements).

          Could you provide a post where we can discuss this subject ?

          • You are correct. I am preparing a new post describing the circumstances and what could happened. This will have all the info we know now documented.
            Lets continue our discussion under that post. I expect to have this post published very soon.

          • Thank you admin.
            Looking forward to your post that presents the evidence we have, to determine if MH17 was shot down deliberately or if it was some sort of colossal mistake.

  15. More precisly I can see wind from the south- west to the north-east in the area of boeing crushing. Remember also that debris posess the start speed 250m/s.

    • Rob
      What does the preliminary report says of the winds?:
      “The winds at the surface were north-easterly, and tended to gradualy veer with height, eventually settling on a south-westerly direction from around 23000 feet,after which they increased in speed height towards the tropopause, which was indicated around 40000 feet. The reported wind at FL320 was from 166 degrees at 13kts”

      13kts=6.69m/s on 10km. On the surface let’s assume wind from north-east 4m/s. It’s component in the direction of azymuth 166 is -2.06 m/s. Meen speed of wind from surface to the 10km level in the direction of 166 degree was (6,69-2.06)/2=2.32m/s. Now let’s for simplicity asuumed that debris falls from a height of 10km by 4min (240s).
      Let’s assume that debris follow the wind direction ( 166 degrees) with mean velocity 2.32m/s by 240 s. It give us distance about 550m and from the picture :http://mh17.webtalk.ru/files/0014/75/e6/63157.jpg you can read distans in that direction about 6 km. On the other picture here : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-eKX4lCIAAe1_h.jpg:large the same distance for some debris is about 8km.
      So Rob You can forget the wind explanation of the debris distribution on the field.

      • doradcar305:

        To be fair to Rob, some material most certainly can act like a sail and will “float” in even a modest wind via having some lift from its shape. Think items like clothing, thin pieces of internal plastic walls, perhaps even thin metal skin sheeting, and this despite the effects of gravity.

        However, your point is well taken.

  16. Rob said:
    “ZERO evidence that Ukraine shot this plane down.NOTHING”
    He could be right if he was not wrong:
    1)30 July Ukr presentation in attempt to debunk Russian MOD – it is not even funny how faked was the presentation.
    2) famous 312 BUK on SBU WEBSITE.
    3) Lughansk attack was actually MANPAD attacking the airconditioner
    4) Kiev forces collected black box on 18 July
    4) 1000000 Russian tanks crosses the border
    5) the photographer that captured Buk trail photo could hear Buk missile exploding 20 km away by land and another 10 km upwards. Still first two photos that he decided to make were in opposite direction of explosions
    6) and so on and so on.

    You drag force assumes that large part will continue facing the direction of movement by its largest cross section area, instead of rotating to face this direction with the edge (smallest cross section). You also forget that drag force is changing with V^2. Hence with reducing speed the force will decrease much faster.so don’t pretend to know everything. Feeling of exceptionalism is ugly. Bigotry that you exposed on thesw pages is boundless

    • There are so many comments. Can you provide me the URL where Rob states black boxes wered collected by Kiev forces on July 18?

      • No it was not Rob who claimed it but Kiev.
        I gave this link in parcelled thread http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/214339.html

        • Antidyatel:I give you now an official warning. Because seeing your energy you should know what I write below.
          Next time I noticed something which smells like propaganda you get another warning.
          The third time you get an IP-ban

          Eastern Ukraine was still Ukraine when the black boxes were found. The photo clearly shows a person wearing jacket of the official Ukraine rescue services. These were not employed by DPR.

          So it is certainly not a lie this statement of Interfax.

          • Antidyatel // August 13, 2015 at 12:20 pm //

            Not so simple my friend. From May 12 Donetsk declared independence. If you don’t like it you should complain to western media that wrote following propaganda: “Ukrainian workers were allowed in Saturday for supervised exploration, just after the government in Kiev accused the Russia-backed rebels of destroying crash evidence”. Saturday was 19 July, not 18th. http://m.nydailynews.com/news/world/malaysia-access-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-crash-site-article-1.1872880
            That was propaganda that I can never compare to.

          • I believe there is little to no proof the separatists removed evidence from the crashsite. I have not been there. There has been usage of motor saws for removal of parts of the cockpit. I do not know if and what was removed. Could be for search & recovery of bodies

            While both Western and Russian media execute propaganda, I do not want propaganda spread here.

            Donetsk can declare whatever they want. United Nations did not state Eastern Ukraine is now DPR. It is part of Ukraine but not controlled by Kiev at the moment.
            The same applies to Crimea.

          • Antidytal The NYT piece you quoted said nothing about that being the FIRST time UA employees were allowed to the crash site, just that they were allowed to go in on Saturday.

            And who knows as far as the Interfax article – ‘Employees of State Emergency Service of Ukraine’ could have gone in there not in an official capacity, they could have been just in civilian clothes and helping at the crash site.
            Then made reports of what they saw as ‘volunteers’.

            You are twisting articles of what they do say to be your manufactured assumptions.
            Such as ‘Kiev forces collected black box on 18 July’
            When the Interfax article plainly states – “Two black boxes have been founded by our emergency teams. I don’t have any information as to where these boxes are at the moment,”
            They said found, not collected.
            You sir are poor at disseminating information, and you twist it to your propaganda viewpoint.

            Fare thee well

    • Where is the statement that ‘1000000 Russian tanks crosses the border’?
      I know this number is not correct. But what is correct number?

      • Of course it is exaggeration. But Ukrs were declaring tank armada invading them everyday. Guardian’s Shawn Walker also saw.them but just forgot his camera and can’t remember coordinates. That was propaganda on low scale but nobody austicised him. So western gullible minds are hopeless

        • Please show me tank plants in Eastern Ukraine which produce all such tanks, APC, Pantsir, Buk.
          Dont forgot (at least) ammo/fuel needed for division during active military actions.

        • This website has clear proof of Russian equipment in Eastern Ukraine.
          It is nonsense to believe the separatists do not get equipment delivered from Russia.
          It is like denying the Holocaust.

          https://bellingcat-vehicles.silk.co/

          • Antidyatel // August 13, 2015 at 2:37 pm //

            Yes, yes. Let’s bring in holocaust. And also children concentration camp in Moscow according to our Ukr friends http://elise.com.ua/?p=71930

            Let me give you a simple test on your ability to resist propaganda even when the 99% are telling you that it is truth
            Go to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
            Look at 2 images titled Last page of the Additional Secret Protocol.
            Tell me what you see. Promise I’ll let you and your website alone after this.

          • I have no idea what you are talking about.
            If you realy believe Russia does not provide equipment and soldiers to Eastern Ukraine you credibility is zero.

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