Dutch prosecutor will ask Dutch government for help in obtaining radar images if needed

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In the period July 6 to July 8 a lot of news on radarimages was published in the Dutch press. An overview.

A delegation of the Dutch prosecution (Openbaar Ministerie) including the director of the OM  visited Moscow for a two day visit.

The Russian authorities told they would provide all the help to assist in the investigation.

Dutch newspaper NRC reported on July 7 that the Dutch prosecutor stressed to the Russians to hand over raw primary radar images. According the Dutch there are indications that Russia has additional radar recordings. Russia will look into it.

Late in the evening of July 7 the Netherlands largest newspaper Telegraaf reported that PM Rutte will request Ukraine president Poroshenko to hand over radar recordings.

However, in the evening of July 8, Dutch newspaper AD and RTL reported that Rutte will not request Poroshenko about radar recordings. According Rutte the Dutch government should not leave fingerprints on the investigation.

Finally, in the late evening of July 8, Telegraaf reported that the Dutch prosecutor will request the Dutch government for help in obtaining radar images if Russia does not hand over radarimages on time. In October JIT will make known the type of weapon and exact lauch location.

 

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8 Comments on Dutch prosecutor will ask Dutch government for help in obtaining radar images if needed

  1. Why JIT do not request raw radar data from Ukraine? They must be do that immediately after investigation started. Moreover they must request Ukraine military fly docs, journals and audio conversations from dispatchers and other persons.

    • Because on July 23, 2014 (6 days after MH17 shootdown) Ukraine passed to international investigators all radar data Ukraine had, including raw. See appendix M to DSB final report on pages 81-82 of the file with appendices A-U
      http://onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/phase-docs/1006/77c9b856be08report-mh17-crash-appendices.pdf
      Ukraine had radar data for the crash site (Ukrainian ATC saw it, DSB has it) from secondary-only radar in Dnepropetrovsk airport 48.367108N 35.121435E. Another primary+secondary radar in Dnepropetrovsk airport 48.362535N 35.112141E out of range 60 NM (254 km from missile strike site). Ukraine never had primary radar data for the crash site on July 17, 2014. The only suitable primary radar ТРЛК-7 49.896570N 36.949886E (near Pechenegi and Chuguev in Kharkov region) was on maintenance on July 17, 2014. ТРЛК-8 radar 48.532319N 38.097121E (near Zajtsevo and Artemovsk in Donetsk region) was destroyed (shot with RPG) by Russian bandits on June 16, 2014:
      http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=48.532319&lon=38.097121&z=18&m=b&show=/15518033/ru/%D0%A2%D0%A0%D0%9B%D0%9A-8-%28%D0%90%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%29
      http://bahmut.com.ua/news/incidents/1720-v-artemovskom-rayone-neizvestnye-povredili-radar-ukraeroruha.html
      Radars in the infamous Donetsk airport (at the frontline) destroyed.

      Radars need periodic maintenance. Pre-war Ukrainian ATC radars were redunant, the crash site was in range of 3 primary radars, so maintenance (say 1 day out of each 30) was no problem. Russian bandits destroyed TRLK-8 and Donetsk airport with its radar, so no redundancy now, but periodic maintenance still needs to be done. Unfortunately, maintenance of ТРЛК-7 coincided with July 17. The crash site was in range of the secondary-only radar in Dnepropetrovsk airport. For civilian ATC secondary is enough.

      On July 17 military flights weren’t scheduled because Ukrainian Su-25 with Soviet РСБН instrument landing system onboard equipment can’t land in cloudy weather in Dnepropetrovsk airport with incompatible Western ILS land equipment only. Ukrainian Su-25 were based in Dnepropetrovsk airport at the time instead of their native Kulbakino airfield in Nikolaev city. So, possibly ТРЛК-7 maintenance on July 17 was not that much coincidence but rather an opportunity. Primary radars are more necessary for military ATC than for civilian ATC.

      Read ATC talks transcript (appendix G, page 40): the controller in Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine asks the controller in Rostov-on-Don, Russia what he sees on his radar. The question was beacuse at the missile strike 13:20:03 UTC secondary data disappeared (because the transponder in MH17 powered down), the Dnepropetrovsk controller didn’t see MH17 anymore because Ukrainian ATC had no primary data (independent from transponders) from the area.

      • Lena; I have a couple of issues with this.

        1. Why did DSB not mention that one of the radar stations providing redundancy was destroyed in June
        2. The radar system in Ukraine was modernized before the football Euro championship.
        3. The mean time between maintenance of these radars makes it a high coincidence that maintenance needed to be done in time of war
        4. When mainentance has to be done on your single primary radar, it is not logical to do that in the middle of the day. This should be done at night
        5. In the morning of July 17 the weather conditions were perfect for flying. Even in the afternoon the cloud were high
        6. Days before July 17 there was a lot of flying by Ukraine Air Force. Why not on the 17th?
        7. Why do Ukraine military require radar support for low flying sorties?
        8 There are more radarstations than just the ones used by civil ATC. For example mobile military ones
        9. in times of war, Ukraine stated Russian air force penetrated Ukraine airspace, it does not make sense at all to switch off all radar.
        10. DSB did not interview eyewitness on the groud. Which is against the recommendation of ICAO Annex 13
        11. People on social media and on video report about seeing military aircraft

        So, the Ukraine story is not very solid. Somehow the military aircraft of Ukraine must have played a crucial role in destroying MH17.

        We will find out what that role was!

        • Somehow.
          I’m tired answering to paranoics. It’s futile.

        • 1. Artemivs’k radar was destroyed in June 2014 de facto, you know this for sure. You have more possibilities to get a response from DSB on why they considered unnecessary to mention that in the report.
          2. Radar facilities at Donetsk airport?
          3. Let your readers know the mean time between maintenance.
          4. Seems like it was possible in Ukraine in July 2014, even if it was not of a good practice. Or that “maintenance” (repair?) required more time.
          5. On July 16th evening Su-25 was shot down supposedly from Russian airspace. Ukrainian Air Forces needed some time to assume countermeasures and to make corrections to their further plans.
          6. See 5.
          7. Any military sorties require radar support to be effective.
          8. We know for certain that numerous Russian military radars near the southern border were operating that day and time. Russian MoD told about 3 operating military stations (likely apart from mobile ones). As for Ukrainian ones, we have no evidence that any of its military radars were operating.
          9. It was harmful, but Ukrainian generals responsible for air defence either didn’t wish to secure Ukrainian airspace, or had no such possibility at that time. I don’t want to guess why, at least in public.
          10. DSB has no right to examine witnesses, not sure about interviews. Anyways, JIT worked with this case at the same time, so it would be right not to interfere. I guess interviews would be just useless for DSB tasks (technical expertise) in this case, as those contained such a great amount of rubbish that there was no chance to filter that out.
          11. These reports are quite contradictory and heavily influenced by (pro-)Russian media propaganda, yet they do not exclude possible presence of Russian and/or Ukrainian aircraft.

          Not providing radar raws by Russia (that we know it has got for sure, unlike Ukraine) is an indication there was something in Ukrainian airspace that points to Russia as the party in fault.

        • sotilaspassi // July 11, 2016 at 10:02 am // Reply

          >3. The mean time between maintenance of these radars makes it a high coincidence that maintenance needed to be done in time of war

          If the maintenance was neglected before war and other radars were destroyed, they became forced to do maintenence ASAP.

          During the time of war, the best time to do the maintenance is when your military planes are not flying & dangering the airspace.

          >4. When mainentance has to be done on your single primary radar, it is not logical to do that in the middle of the day. This should be done at night

          Radar need is not dependent on the time of the day + Radar is the only way to see when it’s dark.

          >5. In the morning of July 17 the weather conditions were perfect for flying. Even in the afternoon the cloud were high

          Cloud base was at 900…1500m. But otherwise not impossible weather to fly with no-radar SU25.

          >6. Days before July 17 there was a lot of flying by Ukraine Air Force. Why not on the 17th?

          Because of great losses on previous days?

          >7. Why do Ukraine military require radar support for low flying sorties?

          Because SU25 does not have radar of it’s own?

          >8 There are more radarstations than just the ones used by civil ATC. For example mobile military ones

          I have no info if RU took them out. We see and know RU aircrafts were patrolling the border, did they actively kill military radar sources?

          >9. in times of war, Ukraine stated Russian air force penetrated Ukraine airspace, it does not make sense at all to switch off all radar.

          It would make sense only to protect their radar and hide radar units, for them to be usable when needed.
          (Doubt all field radars record the data.)

          >11. People on social media and on video report about seeing military aircraft
          >So, the Ukraine story is not very solid. Somehow the military aircraft of

          We do not have hard evidence of any fighterjet.
          Did anyone mention seeing fighterjet in 17Jul? Only afterwards?

          Radar only show there was no f.jet above ~2km / above clouds.

          >Ukraine must have played a crucial role in destroying MH17.

          No hard evidence of that exist. Low flying f.jet is irrelevant vs MH17, IMHO.

          But the big guestion is: how could trained BUK crew make such a huge mistake.

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