Dutch MH17 next of kin: “no information given means a cover-up”

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In Dutch tv programme EenVandaag the father of Quinn Schansman (18) who was one of the passengers on board MH17 is interviewed about the lack of radar images, two years after the shot down.

Thomas Schansman is sure Russia knows exactly what happened. He is sure Ukraine knows exactly what happened. The fact that information is not provived indicates this is a cover-up.

Schansman strongly states that governments like the Dutch should put maximum pressure on other governments to assist in the criminal investigation by handing over all evidence.

Also Dutch member of parliament Pieter Omtzigt is shown in the programme. He again says it is totally not logical that there are no raw primary radar recordings available.

Richard Marquise ,a former FBI investigator who took part in the Lockerbie investigation, states that there is never too much evidence. Every small piece of evidence counts. To prevent questions like “why isn’t that evidence collected”.

The episode of  July 16 of EenVandaag can be watched here.

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25 Comments on Dutch MH17 next of kin: “no information given means a cover-up”

  1. > Thomas Schansman is sure Russia knows exactly what happened. He is sure Ukraine knows exactly what happened. The fact that information is not provived indicates this is a cover-up.

    The US probably also know exactly what happened. It seems too many people know what happened, so there is a hope it’ll leak one day. “Coverup” is a strong feeling one inevitably gets as long as one starts learning about the matter.

  2. Liane Theuer // July 17, 2016 at 11:04 pm // Reply

    “We are dealing with a conflict involving several parties,” says team leader Gerrit Thiry of the Dutch national criminal investigation service Dienst Landelijke Recherche. “These parties may have an interest in manipulating or contaminating material. Therefore we continuously ask ourselves what could be the interest of a source to distribute certain information.”
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/mh17-missile-exhaust-displayed-as-prosecutor-builds-426121/

    „Alles was wir untersuchen, steht zur Diskussion“, sagt der Leiter der kriminaltechnischen Ermittlung, Gerrit Thiry. „Wir haben nichts in Händen, von dem wir sicher wissen, das es wahr und echt ist.“ Alles kann schließlich manipuliert worden sein – von jeder Seite.
    http://www.mittelbayerische.de/politik-nachrichten/spurensuche-im-politischen-minenfeld-21771-art1404955.html

    Man muss davon ausgehen, dass alle betroffenen Parteien, also Russland, die Ukraine und die USA, ein Versteckspiel betreiben. Fragt sich nur zu welchem Zweck. Man schiebt sich weiterhin gegenseitig die Schuld zu, scheint aber wenig Neigung zu verspüren, den Fall wirklich aufzuklären.
    http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/48/48857/1.html
    Thiry adds that the political aspects of the 17 July 2014 event put additional pressure on the investigation.

  3. sotilaspassi // July 18, 2016 at 6:25 am // Reply

    Did the “father of Quinn Schansman” say what he thinks Ukraine is hiding?

    To me it seems Ukraine indicate they know what happened (rebels shot down MH17) and provided all relevant data they had.
    (at the same time, I’m not saying Ukraine should be believed)

    • Daniel Been // July 18, 2016 at 7:40 am // Reply

      If everyone had all the needed radar/imaging coverage which both the US and Russia were suggesting from the start, one should wonder why Russia came up with their public attempts to see “Su-25” in their primary radar recording. Unless they knew something was there from better sources. It would be a guaranteed embarrassment if next day US/Ukraine came up with all the goods proving Russia were lying. But instead we have “suggestions” they were misidentifying blobs but no show.

      For this reason I still believe Russia *knows* some jets were up. And that their BUK (yes I go with that most likely scenario, reserving only minor doubt) tried to take aim and obviously failed. Just like it was doing for the last days so it’s easy to assume they did the same on the 17th.

      The only reason I can think of why Ukraine doesn’t want their jets nearby identified would be when they were up to no good, for example, too near or into to civilian airways. Or intentionally drawing fire. Or something which would share the blame to a significant degree. And they just cannot allow that politically. Although it’s more likely in that case that it was also preconceived since no one came forward to talk about these jets, apart from a few witnesses which are drowned out in the amount of all the varying statements. It would very likely need some premeditation to organize a secret mission instead of a normal flight logged in the usual records. Meaning this might have been an operation from the SBU from the start, a desperate way to change the tides of the war in that region which was going very bad for them. Although I’m not sure if MH-17 was intentionally put in danger or not. For the political fall-out however, this wouldn’t matter that much at all. The “revolution” would be doomed and the war for nothing. So all SBU can do is delay, delay, focus on the BUK and hoping war breaks out again. Also Russia doesn’t gain from destabilizing Kiev at this stage, I suppose. They are timing any further info for most effect.

      • For me the most likely scenario is one in which Ukraine deliberately provoked the BUK in the hoping the missile would hit MH17.
        However I do not know how a missile can wrongly hit a passenger aircraft at 10km.
        There are just too many questions unanswered.
        But all the delay, the errors in the DSB report, government obstruction of releasing documents requested by Dutch press and so on tell me there is something fishy in the story.

        • Daniel Been // July 18, 2016 at 8:25 am // Reply

          It might be interesting to see if any capable radar jamming or deception methods were:

          a. available for Ukrainian jets
          b. capable of disrupting radar lock of a BUK missile
          c. capable of deceiving ground stations
          d. effective at established ranges

          Is there any way the BUK system can “overshoot” in some circumstance like the S-200 missile did in 2001 with Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 , despite radar homing?

          This is really the only alternative to aiming deliberately at the MH-17 because it was misidentified to be a military cargo plane or (if Ukrainians shot it) a Russian flight.

          • What I am saying now is highly speculative but worth a thought:

            MH17 started to transmit unreliable transponder data two minutes before it crashed as reported by avherald. DSB did not mention this.
            The Russian MoD showed a silhouette of an EF-111 fighter aircraft during their pressconference. I believe the aircraft type is not operational anymore but USAF does have aircraft capable of jamming enemy radar stations.
            http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/ef-111a.htm

            Was it an ignorant mistake (they also showed a B707 silhouette iso B777) or some sort of hint?.

            The separatists believed they had shot down a fighter aircraft. Many, over 20, eyewitness reported seeing a fighterjet.
            Primary radar images are missing
            There was a NATO excersise at the moment going on. One of the objectives was to monitor civil airtraffic.
            Jamming of transponders has happened before (area over Czech republic, Austria, south of Germany)

            As said, speculative but try to debunk.

          • Wind Tunnel Man // July 18, 2016 at 1:18 pm //

            Admin:

            “MH17 started to transmit unreliable transponder data two minutes before it crashed as reported by avherald. DSB did not mention this.”

            Please elaborate on avherald’s report – I’ve just had a quick look through it (not the readers’ comments) and didn’t notice anything about unreliable transponder data.

          • @windtunnelman
            How diffult can it be? Google “mh17 transponder unreliable” and you will find it.

            http://avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d

            A Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200, registration 9M-MRD performing flight MH-17/KL-4103 from Amsterdam (Netherlands) to Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia) with 283 passengers and 15 crew, was enroute at FL330 about 20nm northeast of Donetsk (Ukraine) when the transponder data became unreliable at 13:18Z (position N48.28 E38.08) and was lost at FL330 at 13:20Z.

          • Wind Tunnel Man // July 18, 2016 at 2:14 pm //

            Admin:

            Thanks for the link – I was looking at http://avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d/0103&opt=0 which is the Oct 13th 2015 update and the unreliable transponder data issue is also mentioned further down on that page. However doesn’t that refer to the 2 minutes before MH17’s FDR stopped at 13:20Z?

          • The information provided by a very well informed source as avherald speaks for itself.
            Something happened which caused the transponder to sent unreliable data. I contacted the owner of the website but he resfused to further explain what this means.

          • Wind Tunnel Man // July 18, 2016 at 2:44 pm //

            Admin: thanks for clearing that up. Simon Hradecky only reports facts and does not speculate so he must have indeed had a reliable source for that information.

          • Indeed. Simon told me after about 4 emails I send to him without replying: “The transponder data were no longer reliable, that’s all I can say, nothing to add beyond what I wrote in the coverage.”

            Maybe it is me but I think this is weird. Someone writes down that data becomes unreliable. So there must be a reason that data is seen as unreliable. However Simon decides not to explain why.

          • Wind Tunnel Man // July 18, 2016 at 3:38 pm //

            Admin: yes I’m sure he would have received some verifiable technical information regarding the unreliability of the transponder data and decided to keep that brief statement on his site, without elaboration, for a good reason.

        • sotilaspassi // July 18, 2016 at 8:35 am // Reply

          SBU made the spotter to fool the BUK crew to shoot?

      • sotilaspassi // July 18, 2016 at 8:43 am // Reply

        “If everyone had all the needed radar/imaging coverage which both the US and Russia were suggesting from the start, one should wonder why Russia came up with their public attempts to see “Su-25” in their primary radar recording.”

        To me it seems they had nothing better. Their lie was all 90% of their own population see.

        “For this reason I still believe Russia *knows* some jets were up.”
        If their AWACS plane or radars saw UA f.jet, they still rather take 100% of the blame than release evidence?

        • I do not think Putin minds being blamed. Putin needs an enemy to be seen by his people as the great leader. See how Erdogan does this by replacing his army staff.
          So the propaganda on the western side more or less helps Putin. Maybe that is one of the reasons for a lack of presenting not easy to debunk evidence.

          Somehow I believe we will see this status quo for many years to come.

          • My conspiracy thinks…

            I think all sides win from mh17 unclear results. Russian army invaded to Ukraine territory on July 2014 and after on February 2015 (where were many evidence on it with photo/videos/stories).

            NATO gave guaranty to Ukraine and other country to response if Russian try to do new actions after Crimea.

            But NATO and USA can’t fight with Russia, they haven’t good army in Europe and can’t response on that. That’s why they lied about it and close their eyes on Donbass.

            If they or Russian publish new data (like raw radar data) then World can see real situation (like regular army on Donbass, aircraft and helicopters fly through border, etc). And people ask USA: “Why were you silent two years and did nothing?”

        • Daniel Been // July 18, 2016 at 9:09 am // Reply

          sotilaspassi: “To me it seems they had nothing better. Their lie was all 90% of their own population see.”

          That’s possible. A lot of things in the news are for a country’s internal consumption these days. But the chance of international humiliation would be rather large, as even Russians read foreign news. It’s something Russians do still value I think, to be taken seriously. Personally I just think Russians are smarter chess players. But I could be wrong of course, perhaps truth does not matter anymore at all in this playing field, only imagery (that would be a world wide problem).

          • Remember about 80% (maybe even more) of the Russian people believe Ukraine shot down MH17.The Russian probably believe the western media all lie.
            Of course there are some people who know better. The same can be applied to Turkey. People in developing countries (China, Turkey, Russia) do not want democracy, they want a strong leader, a stable situation and growing economy. They are not used to freedom of press, democracy etc

          • Daniel Been // July 18, 2016 at 9:57 am //

            “People in developing countries” would be indeed not as much interested in “truth” as concept or a result of fact finding and proper verification. But you could include countries like the USA as well, where a majority does not seem interested in questioning seriously but jumping to a conclusion which fits an emotional need or ideology.

            It seems too easy to say it’s Chinese or Russian issue. But I do think political leaders understand this very well and dumb everything down or even twist it so they get elected (or coups fail). They are worried about the majority perception, nothing else unless they have some integrity hidden somewhere. And even then the practical requirements of real politic might trump all that, if survival seems at the stake.

          • > People in developing countries (China, Turkey, Russia)

            Although I agree that the general educational level in Russia is lower than in The Netherlands. In many ways Russia is more developed than The Netherlands. For its relatively small population Russia is maintaining several high tech industries.

      • My understanding also is that Russia has (or had) additional radar data. This translation of the MOD press conference says the images from the Rostov Radar only *corroborate* information gathered by other ‘systems of air control’.

        http://archive.mid.ru//brp_4.nsf/0/ECD62987D4816CA344257D1D00251C76

        “Besides it, Russian system of air control detected the Ukrainian Air Force aircraft, purposed Su-25, moving upwards toward to the Malaysian Boeing-777. The distance between aircrafts was 3-5 kilometers.

        The video of the Rostov Aerial Center of the Joint Air Traffic Management System can corroborate the information. The Chief of Staff of the Air Force Lieutenant-General Igor Makushev will comment the video.”

        Without knowing what the post processing of the air traffic control radar did, we can’t know what could be seen on the screen cast from Rostov air traffic control and what will be filtered out. Maybe targets with vertical speeds above a certain limit will take longer to be recognized by the post processing as a valid target.

        I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a cat and mouse game of electronic warfare going on between Russia and Ukraine of radar jamming, electronic counter measures, provocations and counter provocations. That would explain why both sides are not keen on putting everything on the table.

        • For sure there has been a lot of electronic warfare. DSB even included a notice to Malaysian pilots which said the area over Eastern Ukraine had unreliable GPS signals. Can only be caused by jamming.
          Ofcourse DSB found out that on July 17 the GPS signal was not jammed.

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