Dutch experts to return to MH17 crash site for recovery of debris and personal belongings

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The ambassador for the Netherlands  Cees Jan René Klompenhouwer has told Ukraine press that Dutch experts will return to the area where MH17 crashed to collect  wreckage and personal belongings.

It is over a year ago when MH17 crashed by people living in the area still find small pieces of wreckage and personal belongings. There are brought to the head to the village council.

Russia Today showed in a documentary on MH17 that parts of the roof near the cockpit were found in June 2015. These are important parts as they clearly show damage of shrapnel. This blogpost has the details on that finding.

Patrick Lancaster is a freelance journalist. He filmed debris still in the area at July 2015.

Klompenhouwer said that the head of a village Council near the scene of the tragedy gathered a truckload of debris and other items that need to be transported to the Netherlands.

“For this reason, some employees of the Embassy, for example, a law enforcement officer attache, military attache, and certain others should go and pick up this truck. The chief inspector from Holland will come to investigate what was discovered. He will be based in Kharkiv region. This, by itself, will not be on the scale as it was before, ” the ambassador said.

He also said that with high probability such a procedure needs to be repeated every 3 months. All found items wil be transported to the Netherlands.

Source: news.rin.ru and ryb.ru 

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20 Comments on Dutch experts to return to MH17 crash site for recovery of debris and personal belongings

  1. Admin, I’m not sure if I’m allowed to give my emotional and personal opinion at this great and factual oriented website. If not, please skip this note.

    Reading this post I’m outraged again by the shocking gap between morals and politics of the Dutch government. It is completely abnormal if your country as your representative on the crash site is not able to resonate the deepest human emotions felt by the families of the victims.

    A government which weighs its ties with the Ukrainian government heavier than its basic responsibility to prompt and thorough bringing home all possible human remains as well.

    Though the Dutch were very moved by the solemn repatriation of the victims, there was and is also great anger with the opportunistic behavior of their government. We know the collection of human remains and personal belongings has not been optimal. And yes we are ashamed the world thinks we are just calculating opportunists.

    It may be that the area is large and without an army of sniffer dogs would be difficult to cover. But on June 28, 2015 crossed the bones still in the ground next to the engine (Kitty Logan); July 10, 2015 Patrick Lancaster: “Just found many pieces of human bones at the site # MH17. Why after 1yr have all remains not been given to the families?”

    Now after a year, the poor residents of Donetsk gathered a truck filled with bones and personal belongings and the Netherlands? They talked in walks of life and trivialized a truckload of human bones: “For this reason, some employees of the Embassy, for example, a law enforcement officer attache, military attache, and certainement others should go and pick up this truck. The chief inspector from Holland will come to investigate what was discovered. He will be based in Kharkiv region. “This, by itself, will not be on the scale as it was before,” the ambassador said.’

    • I have been saying since about the first week after the disaster that the Dutch government is collaborating with the Kiev government. Politics is far more important than getting to the truth. Too many indications for that.

      Dutch press is totally ignorant and even does not report on this.

  2. Just hearing you add those two names make me cringe.
    Kitty who was complacent and some would even say asking for a shooting at Ukrainian troops by the separatist forces just to have a more ‘sensational’ story.
    She has been discredited and disavowed by many.
    Patrick Lancaster who is like GWP on antidepressants, is a well known DNR advocate and former partner as well.
    All are persona non grata in Ukraine for their actions, and arrest warrants are issued for them.

    Just to hear you quote them and give them any validity makes my stomach turn!

    Please site proof of there claim – ‘trivialized a truckload of human bones’
    As to assign that bones would bee given no dignity at all to be carried home separate from wreckage.
    Please show me a truckload of human bones as well.

    Secondly, please show why you assert, like they did (FALSELY at the time), that all remains they came across were human bones.
    NOWHERE in the admin’s article was any mention of human remains.

    And ADMIN,
    I think you should cut DSB and the investigative groups a little slack unless you are implying NATO should go in cordon off an area and initiate a search effort regardless if the separatists or RF wants that.
    Because that is about the only way it could be done faster and remain credible.
    I think the 3 month revisit to pick up missed remains, belongs, and wreckage that was not picked up initially is a great idea.
    Personally I think it should be every month and the DSB or UN should be paying the wreckage cleanup volunteers for their efforts.

    Back to BASIC,
    I have seen two bones found that were coon or cat possum or wild dog. I have seen one that was plainly from a cow.
    How many DNA tests did they do before they made those statements?
    How many DNA tests have you seen to make you believe those statements were credible?
    Or did you just take it on faith what they wrote in their pieces about human remains was factual?

    Is it possible there is human remains there? Yes.
    There are many large scale disasters that are NOT in conflict zones that all human remains do not get swept up the first time through.
    They should get a little waiver considering all the things they had to go through don’t you think?

    Just the fact it is a 50 KM diameter circle (about 30 miles) and inside a conflict zone with missiles going every which way and no one admitting to be part of the downing of MH17, and the fact they have had less then a month total and 200 volunteers to go over that whole region to collect remains AND wreckage AND search for parts of the murder weapon AND conduct interviews AND to collect witness statements AND to collect personal belongs that were stolen by various people AND to collect original images and videos and cameras as evidence AND little available heavy equipment for transporting and lifting various large pieces of debris, etc. makes collecting everything a little difficult don’t you think?

    Basic, your statement above is one I would expect from Ruslan Kotsaba, Lancaster, Phillips, or Logan, but I did not expect to see such a vile distortion of truth and facts veiled as logical and noteworthy criticism from you.

    It could also be seen as a false statement leading to DSB criticism which the Kremlin has been using many times as propaganda to try and prevent a Tribunal and discredit the International recognized investigative bodies.

    You sir have dropped on my credibility meter to as low as Hector, if not lower, or Clement Townsend, or some of the other … by even giving those two disgusting people any recognition or validity in your mind.

    I hear LieNews are looking for a few good distorters of reality, and Basic if you need, I can give you a good recommendation.

    Fare thee well

    • Boggled, you and I put different emphases which view the matter from various perspectives. I told before I would give an emotional reaction.

      You said: ‘There are many large scale disasters that are NOT in conflict zones that all human remains do not get swept up the first time through.’

      That is true, but here there was no talk of natural disasters but from sheer political unwillingness to put away the bodies as soon as possible. And it was the separatists and the residents who gathered as much bodies as possible. Further, objective information learns the conflict zone in this silent area had been created wittingly by shelling of Ukraine after the crash.

      You said: ‘They should get a little waiver considering all the things they had to go through don’t you think?’

      Don’t agree. As you know, the Dutch hardly investigated the scene and stayed only in the immediate surroundings of the wreckage. Also they were ready quickly. They worked with a few people and only one sniffer dog has been pictured. I bet the separatists would have given permission for 300 International Red Cross helpers to search the area immediately after the disaster with 150 sniffer dogs in several days.

      In general, if it was too much work as you are claiming, then they had to scale up the project in time and should not have used this as an a posteriori argument for failure. And they had less than a month total left only because they waited too long and started too late.

      Boggled, I am an independent observer and am not employed by the Russians.

  3. Basic and admin,
    I will remind you, RF proposed a RUSSIAN only peacekeeping force to come in and secure the area.
    They refused an International one.
    Proclaimed they would veto it if it was brought up.

    Separatists laid landmines all around the crash site to prevent International observers from working unhindered without their approval.

    The OSCE was prevented access numerous times.
    Many negotiations were made to just allow basic access.

    I am sure the townspeople of the various villages wanted to help, they are in the middle of this crisis and had a civilian airliner drop in their town, they would love for it to go back to peace as soon as possible, but separatists refuse to allow that.

    The separatists are one set of people and they think they can dictate what goes on on territory they temporarily occupy to the International community.
    With RF behind them and their arsenal, the International community plays by the RF rulebook temporarily.

    The reasons for delayed collection is refusal for unhindered access by both Russians and Separatists.
    The investigators are negotiating for the time they are allowed.

    The only way to have unhindered access would be to force the Kremlin and Separatists to comply would be a NATO coalition.
    RF would start a nuclear war because of that.

    Ukraine wanted peacekeepers coming in.
    Called for international UN groups to come in and protect the site.
    Malaysia called for that.
    RF refused and so did the separatists in those negotiations.

    Basic, please provide info for your claim – ‘I bet the separatists would have given permission for 300 International Red Cross helpers to search the area immediately after the disaster with 150 sniffer dogs in several days.’

    Because from everything I have read about the negotiations, that is a bold faced lie and is completely disagreeable with reality.

    The evidence collectors were victim to landmines and control of lots of guys with AK47s that would just fire to scare investigators and collectors of evidence just for the thrill of it.
    Many of the separatists blocked access to the site and repeatedly sent investigators back to their hotel.
    They continue to hinder OSCE in all their ‘observer’ duties every day now.
    You can read that in their daily reports.

    Here are just a couple sites that support my statements.

    There are tons of other ones.

    Admin, you make a BOLD statement fore your site.
    ‘The framing of Russia and separatists started very soon.’

    Did it ever cross your mind that at G7 or other meetings that the classified info of the fact were the missile was launched from was discussed and displayed in private?
    The USA prides itself on being able to make somewhat quick decisions by the intelligence it collects, and it has one of the best systems of the planet.

    They stated what they could before the ‘official’ investigation could finish, but they are letting Europe dignitaries take the lead as far as what they want to do, because it is primarily a RF and Europe decision of how neighbors are going to interrelate.

    Especially considering Europe bought 30 percent of its natural gas through Russia.
    They needed an alternative if they were going to begin challenging RF on the public sphere.

    That is it, the USA and Ukraine provided enough evidence for European leaders to make an guided high percentage decision.
    They are waiting for the official investigation to come out.

    However, if MH17 was supposed to be the start of RF trying to reacquire the Baltics and expand their sphere of occupation again, the USA was watching.
    Europe has its own intelligence groups who were watching and keeping things classified but allow their leaders to know the facts as real time as they can.

    Western Powers do not want to begin a world war because of this, so they are keeping a lot under the belt to fool vova’s best laid plans of a RF Peacekeeping (invasion and occupation) force.
    Yes, there is a lot of politics involved.
    There is also a lot at stake.

    No framing is involved.
    USA and European intelligence agencies had real time intelligence of what happened.
    They wanted to avoid trying to corner vova in a box quickly because he made many references to using nukes in a tactical and a first strike option before MH17 got destroyed.
    vova even flew two unarmed (but could be quickly armed if vova opened his briefcase with the codes) nukes over the English Channel.

    The leaders (judges and politicians and military decision makers) of the world had real time intelligence almost immediately after the destruction and had a PowWow to discuss what would happen and how to proceed and who would take the lead etc.

    No their is no framing, I am sure they have the communication codes of the BUK talking to some sort of command center, they have satellite conformation of launch site, time of destruction, weapon signature, launcher signature, they have route traveled of the BUK, they have it all.

    The thing they do not have is a guarantee of how level headed Russian military leaders will react.
    And they saw a bad indication with the MoD lying its ass off on the global public stage.
    And the hindering of the investigation at every level.

    I am really surprised at you admin for declaring it is DEFINITIVELY a frame up.
    USA after 911 keeps its finger on the intelligence pulse everywhere, and to prevent another attack like that, they know to be prepared to act quickly.
    They do not always act, but when they do it is decisive and for a reason.
    Even NATO has its own intelligence network and knows what happened.

    Imagine your given the score to a Futbol game 6 months in advance from a reliable source of information that has proven results again and again, could you keep the secret?
    World leaders have to for this investigation, but they know.

    Everything we are discussing was discussed the first day after the accident, with the full weight of intelligence of NATO, individual European nations, and the USA and the evidence they had at their fingertips.

    Back in 2001 with the SibirAir 1812 incident, know how the RF and Ukrainian’s found out they hit a civilian plane?
    The USA, they called, informed they had a missile launch and destruction of a plane, and offered assistance.
    The forces testing their missiles did not even know they hit a civilian plane when the USA called, at least they never announced it in private channels and the first ones RF would have called would have been the USA and Israel.
    The USA notified them.

    No, there is no framing, they know exactly what happened.

    They know the guilty party, the investigation is just the final 5 percent of confirmation of what happened and the exact timeline of the incident.
    That is what the Dutch and others are hiding.

    But for the West, that is what makes it official and follows INTERNATIONAL Law which everyone but Russia and a few other nations seem to recognize and follow.
    Framing? Seriously you made that statement?

    Fare thee well

  4. Not collecting all the important pieces was bad enough. But then the DSB had the nerve to say that they had gathered all the pieces needed for the reconstruction.

    • Let’s say your putting together a puzzle with only have all the pieces on a table and no final picture to go by.
      A Grizzly bear comes near your puzzle after being all sticky after munching out on some honey.
      Ends up collecting four pieces of a 1000 piece puzzle on his sticky fur.
      Do you chase him down to collect your four pieces so you can see the final image?
      Or do you have enough to know what the final picture is?

      isthatso, they could spend the next 50 years chasing fdown every piece of evidence related to MH17 and still not get every one.
      BUT they do have the relevant pieces, and if their is a piece that exonerates the accused, well it is up to them to find it to get a not guilty verdict.

      They only have to have enough for what they need to prove and make their case.
      Yes, they are searching for the truth, but when 99.9 percent of the data gives the Attorney General feeling he has a very winnable case, they really do not need that 1 percent.

      Let the devil’s advocate find it if it is that important.
      In a perfect world, we would love 100 percent.
      It is not a perfect world, and a war zone makes things very complicated.
      I think they have enough pieces to determine the Torus of the missile, its trajectory, the warhead used, the type of missile, the type of launcher, etc.
      They are gathering the pieces, but do they really need them all?
      Do you need to stop and get out your car to know you have a flat tire?
      Or can you tell from the way it feels driving?

      Fare thee well

      • Boggled: it is really very very stupid of the Dutch recovery mission to not collect all relevant debris. Even if there is already enough evidence the last thing you want is provide Russia ammunition to blame the investigation. This is exactly what happened. Lavrov said the DSB did not collect all debris.
        We are not talking about:
        – some minor pieces of debris
        – a complex recovery mission
        – an expensive recovery mission
        – a dangerous recovery mission

        Just send a truck to the area once every week and collect the debris and personal belongings.

        • Robert (alias Erkie999) // September 10, 2015 at 8:33 pm // Reply

          The Russian will always find a reason the complain about the investigation. Whether you have collected 95%, 99% or even 99,99% of relevant pieces, Russia will claim DSB has not collected all debris.

          Just a reminder of what Joustra (DSB chairman) said in December 2014: without the reconstruction we already know what happened, but with the reconstruction we can proof that in 2 or 3 differenent ways. That means reconstruction is just supporting evidence and therefor no need to collec 99,99% of the relevant debris.

          Minsk 2 is in place from februari 2015, but that doesn’t mean it is a save place. Only in August there has been almost 3000 (2941 to be exact) violations by Donbas militants of Minsk 2. The last days it is suprisingly quiet, but last week, almost along the entire frontline there were battles/fightings.

          • Robert:

            “we already know what happened, but with the reconstruction we can proof that in 2 or 3 differenent ways”

            This is a dangerous attitude that desires to proceed directly to the punishment of the supposed guilty without ever needing to prove anything because we “know” what happened and who did it and have “known” since no more than 2 hours after the wreck. It accounts for the slipshod collection of evidence and the casual disregard towards the wreck site that saw it become a battlefield without anyone blinking an eye.

            If we truly are so all-knowing, then the evidence that creates this certainty, namely either American space imagery of the launch locatable to a specific coordinate or a verifiable ground photo or video of the launch, verified ownership of the weapon, and the names of the soliders involved, should have been presented to a candid world long ago.

          • Robert, the way in which the DSB was established does not inspire immediate confidence in its methods. Therefore we would be glad if they are willing to come with falsifiable hypotheses. Even better, of course, would be the presentation of any proof.

            Mind you, cherry picking from debris on the crash site can deliberately jeopardize alternative hypotheses and this wittingly destruction of research data might invalidate the results of the DSB and JIT in scientific and legal terms.

            Hence the Russians are completely right in their protest against this unscientific method. In fact DSB has been warned by the Russians for failure of their research.

            Joustra said: ‘without the reconstruction we already know what happened, but with the reconstruction we can proof that in 2 or 3 differenent ways. That means reconstruction is just supporting evidence and therefor no need to collec 99,99% of the relevant debris.’

            No, this is completely incorrect. Joustra cannot be sure of his hypothesis before proof. It’s no religion! And proving one’s hypothesis is no courtesy to the world but a pressing demand. Joustra seems to have selected his favorite hypothesis from a multitude of possibilities. He then selects proof from the wreckage of only this hypothesis. But here Joustra possibly confuses evidence with prove. Evidence can be based on tunnel vision but prove is prove.

            So his proof by reconstruction of the cockpit might be somewhat falsified if it fits better within other theories.

      • boggled you know perfectly well the Dutch have not recovered the equivalent of 996 out of 1000 puzzle pieces.

        Unless you are aware of an indictment that I am not aware of (please provide a link) there are no accused to be exonerated.

        Fred Westerbeke has never said that he has a “very winnable” case. If he has made a statement that even approaches such confidence then please provide a link.

        In a perfect world innocence is presumed and investigations are designed to follow the evidence wherever it may lead. The location of the debris is irrelevant. There is no shooting at the debris field, no mines planted, no cluster bomblets lying around, etc.

        Look at the facts. The Dutch found 500 foreign objects embedded in bodies and luggage and investigated only 25 of them. They recovered maybe two-thirds of the debris, and most of what they recovered is sitting unexamined in two hangars.

        You would have to be blind to not see how both investigations could be interpreted as cherry picking the evidence to fit a predetermined conclusion. Even in an imperfect world the Dutch could do far better than this.

        Admin is right, the Dutch have something to hide.

  5. Only if one thinks to have found the perfect theory one knows in advance what information must be gathered from the plane. This might be the case when shrapnel found in the plane and in the bodies certainly must come from a BUK-missile. Supporting evidence might be (?) the discovery of parts of a BUK-missile at the site.

    But as said earlier, then one has to prove also BUK-shrapnel has not been shot later into the fuselage and the bodies at the unattended crash site. If that is impossible to prove and the theory could be false then it might be too late to return to the site to collect additional parts for the next theory. And resembling ‘prove’ to support the most likely cause of crime (BUK) might come down to tunnel vision:

    [BUT they do have the relevant pieces, and if there is a piece that exonerates the accused, well it is up to them to find it to get a not guilty verdict.]

    Unfortunately this is a completely wrong conception of research and might be an exact form of tunnel vision where the damage is for the accused.

    A false dilemma involves a situation in which only limited alternatives are considered, when in fact there is at least one additional option.

    Now, if it is proven to be a BUK and only pieces of the fuselage with holes of shrapnel are collected than DSB might be satisfied but JIT is not, because for the horizontal course angle of the missile they have to prove there is no damage in the other parts. Hence the whole fuselage is needed to estimate the horizontal and vertical course angle to find and prove the place of firing of the BUK missile.

    • Basic, you state –
      ‘Supporting evidence might be (?) the discovery of parts of a BUK-missile at the site.’
      How do you know they have not already found that?
      Not you or I know exactly what was found, so as far as judging what is relevant is up to investigators, prosecutors, and the judges.
      As you know in court cases there is a long process of judging what evidence is admissible.

      Investigators love to have as much time as possible to collect and analyze evidence, but as you see time is being refused to them in the collection because it is a conflict zone and also the International community is demanding answers.
      Before everyone having digital cameras and mobile phones so widely available there was not as much evidence as we have now and courts were able to make the verdict on that.

      If investigators could have 50 years and the public would wait that long they could collect ALL possible evidence.
      Scientific approaches evolve.
      Court cases were solved without DNA evidence, it has evolved to a required part of court cases nowadays.

      Evidence of admissible quality could be claimed that BUK pieces were added at any time from the time they are at the crash site, to Kharkiv, to Netherlands, in the evidence warehouse, wherever.
      That is a dead end unless you can prove that evidence was tampered with that a judge will throw out the evidence.
      That is a part of the court case and a job of the devil’s advocate.

      You are playing arm chair quarterback to nothing you can control and nothing you have access to.
      You do not know the avenues the investigators follow, the avenues the prosecutors follow or the procedures of International justice, it appears.

      The professionalism of Western investigators is recognized and accepted by all parties.
      You and Lavrov can cry all you want, but they are following the procedure they can in the time frame allowed.
      International justice IS being carried out.
      As will the Hague Tribunals.

      As far as to the evidence a devil’s advocate during the evidence review phase or even the court case, he must prove also that it is not tampered with when he presents it for review.
      It will be checked out.
      That is why judges allow additional evidence to be presented in the course of a trial.
      A defender of the accused has a job and they hire private investigators etc.
      Some cases are NOT open and shut, but prosecutors attempt to make it as much as possible a slam dunk case.

      That is why a judge and jury are there also.
      Like i said, I wish during the whole time there was a monthly collection and transfer of evidence from those in the DNR occupied areas.
      It would have a different level of scrutiny because it was not Official investigators.
      And that evidence may end up getting thrown out in court.
      Who knows, so all that work might go for nothing.

      Regardless, they do not need EVERYTHING to make a judgement of what happened.
      There is one level of evidence collection searches for what is needed for DSB and a completely other evidence collection process needed for the criminal trial.

      DSB, does not need everything to make the report that is described in their mission.
      JIT has a larger evidence collection process.
      YOU do not know what they collected and they may feel they have enough to make their case.
      IF they had the tools of alien’s time travel, they could have other evidence we do not have now and make an even more conclusive case, but they are still able to make an internationally recognized judgment withouit time travel.

      They do not need all possible evidence, they do need enough evidence to prevent it from becoming a cold case file that sits in a box for many years to come.
      IF they make the judgment that they have collected enough, they JUST MIGHT HAVE.

      Some cases are solved by finding the smoking gun, some are solved without it.
      Are you proposing that the JIT investigators MUST have the BUK to present their criminal case and reach a guilty verdict?
      They did not bring a S200 system into the court room regarding SibirAir 1812?
      Did they bring in the whole missile or just parts of it?

      In a war zone, there is only so much admissible evidence you can collect, and because of the terrorists and the Kremlin, international investigators were not able to be on the seen within minutes, it took days.
      Already the possibility of evidence tampering is there.
      They work with what they can to do there forensic analysis.


      A single hair can make or break a case, if investigators find it, it may be the hingepin in the prosecution.
      IF the defense finds it, it may just exonerate their client.

      Investigators try very hard to give as many tools as possible to give the courts a chance to reach a verdict.
      The defense has ALL that data, and they usually have a long time and PI’s to search for additional evidence to present at trial.
      If investigators are happy with what they have found and feel they have enough, they just may have enough.
      Courts will decide if they didn’t.
      NOT you.

      Fare thee well

      • Boggled: despite various warnings to keep your posts to the point you keep on writing long comments which are not always to the point.
        I just blocked your account and will unblock it next week.

  6. Liane Theuer // September 7, 2015 at 3:49 pm // Reply

    On august 28 the ex-chief of the Main Investigation Department of the Security Service of Ukraine and co-chairman of the international commission investigating the tragedy, Major-General Vasily Vovk made the following statement (google translater):

    “Traces that are not from a missile
    At the same time, some found at the crash site wreckage and remains of some bodies that contained traces that are not identified by experts as resulting from exposure to damaging elements of missiles.
    The investigation believes that it could be traces of shots from small arms militants, as well as random, crazy getting ricochets and fragments of munitions during the time when the fragments remained in the area of ​​the crash, intense fighting goes on and on”, he adds .”


    Background :
    1) Poroshenko fired Major-General Vasily Vovk on June 19.

    2) SBU-chief Valentin Nalyvaychenko was fired the day before.

    3) On June 15 a whistleblower collected the WIFKA millions.

    4) On June 19 the international investigation team visited the chrash site again. They took soil samples .

    Maybe there are some correlations.

  7. Liane Theuer // September 9, 2015 at 9:44 pm // Reply

    isthatso, thanks for your reply.
    Vovk is without any doubt a very right-wing .
    But he also has deep insight into the investigation of MH17. Maybe he hates Poroshenko more than he wishes to hide the truth ?! And maybe he likes money. And maybe he want to find a save place in the world.

  8. The only safe place for Vovk is to remain aligned with western interests. That is exactly what he was doing a month after being fired. He said Ukraine had no ground weapons in the area capable of shooting down MH17. He stays on message which is the safe thing to do regardless of his resentment of desire to cash in.

    He possibly knows a lot, and everything he knows is useless to anyone who wants to know the truth because of his history of outrageous lies. That is the problem, not his ideology.

    I got it wrong above when I wrote about his claim about missile fragments being found in the bodies of the victims. He did not specify how many of the metal fragments were likely from a missile. His statement could be true, but his lack of credibility makes it useless. His knack for making transparently false statements is funny though.

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